Episode 11: It's Dangerous to Go Alone. Take RiRi!

Jaymo: Welcome back everyone to The Old Switch-a-Roo, where we're talking Gaming Retro with Mike and Jaymo.

Mike: I'm Mike

Jaymo: And I'm Jaymo. And you know what, Mike? I'm going to jump right to the title screen this time, because you know something? It's dangerous to go alone. We should take something. Do you know where we can find a Ri?

Mike: I mean, I know we can find a RiRi.

Jaymo: Oh, Ris. Okay, we should take Ris. Mike where are we going to find a RiRi?

Mike: We can find her on Twitch as RiriYells. I met her in grad school.

RiRi: That's right.

Mike: Nearly a decade ago.

RiRi: I was doing the math. We met over ten years ago.

Mike: Yeah.

RiRi: I checked for gray hairs this morning. I didn't find any.

Jaymo: You haven't started getting gray hairs yet?

RiRi: Uh, not yet.

Jaymo: I've had them for a while. You guys met in grad school. So you were studying the same thing, I presume?

RiRi: Both astrophysics, that's right. We were in the same classes. We had similar kind of projects. It was a lot of fun.

Jaymo: That's cool. So, RiRi, you got to tell me, what was Mike like as a classmate? Because I stopped being Mike's classmate back in high school. what was he like in college?

RiRi: So nice and helpful. He was super nice. If somebody asked a question, Mike immediately was like, yeah, I can help you with that. Or we could look at that together. Like, he was just really nice. So we got along, y'know immediately, and we've been friends since. Even though he moved far, far away to the land of California.

Mike: And even though I did take her to her first haunt, and I thought she was never going to talk to me again.

RiRi: I shoved him into an actor.

Mike: And then ran.

Jaymo: So, by haunt, I don't know Mike if that's, like, just a widely known term, but he means, like a Halloween event where

RiRi: it was a haunted house.

Jaymo: Through a maze,

RiRi: supposedly the scariest one in our town, where we met in grad school. Um, I started out very excited. In the middle of it, absolutely freaked out. There was, like, an inflatable wall that pushes you in. And I was like, Mike I can't get out of here and he had to hold my hand out. And at one point, a scare actor really scared me, and I wanted to get by him. He was kind of in the way, and Mike was kind of in my way. So I just shoved Mike and ran.

Jaymo: That's amazing.

RiRi: When we left, I was so happy again. I was excited. I was like, oh, when's our next one?

Mike: No. Uh, after that, the entire drive back to her car. Was her swearing at me for this. It wasn't until Monday where it's like, are you all right? And she's like, that was awesome. That is not what you said.

Jaymo: Well, so speaking of swearing, RiRi, we should talk about your Twitch experience. So we were talking before the podcast recorded. You have a penchant for swearing, um, at retro games here, and Zelda is your main foray into streaming, is it not?

RiRi: Yeah, I play a lot of Zelda games, especially the N64 ones, which another time we'll get into, but I do like the even older ones from before my time.

Jaymo: So, in this podcast, Mike and I are attempting to shoot and slash and shhhhyeaaaagh our way through all 200 plus games in, the Nintendo Switch Online catalog. So today we are diving into The Legend of Zelda and Zelda II: The Adventure of Link the two games that started it all. So I didn't play these games until my family got an NES at a garage sale. Deep into the 90s, I think we actually already had a Dreamcast at that point. When was the first time, um, that each of you came across the Zelda franchise for the first time

Mike: In terms of actually playing them? Like, a week ago when we started this,

Jaymo: Mike has this annoying.

RiRi: He's watched me play them. He's watched me.

Mike: Yes. Yeah, for the later ones I've watched Riri play them. Up until that point that was the only reason that I understood that, like, I think there's Zelda things that I've picked up on only because I've seen them show up on her stream, like, hey, wait a minute. That's a thing I've heard of.

Jaymo: So, Mike was this your first in preparing for this episode? Was this your first time ever playing a Zelda game for any extended period of time?

Mike: I mean, yeah, unless we want to be like, oh, Smash Brothers has Link in it. That counts.

RiRi: Mike that's wild

Jaymo: Right?

RiRi: You get to play it in release order effectively,

Mike: yes.

RiRi: That's really unique. That's unique. That's very cool.

Jaymo: Well, also, and I'm eager to talk to Mike about what he thought about these games, because in this podcast, he's refusing to use modern functionality. So he won't save the game, he won't rewind. He plays it like they did back in the 80s and 90s.

RiRi: It's impossible.

Jaymo: Yeah, basically.

Mike: Yeah. That appears to be my takeaway.

Jaymo: Awesome. Um, well, so let's dive into our first game for today, The Legend of Zelda For the NES

Mike: I want to hear when RiRi's first experiences with these were because we covered mine.

Jaymo: Oh yeah, sorry, I thought she said

RiRi: Oh no, sorry. Um, I forgot to jump in. I got a Nintendo 64 in, like, Christmas '98, I think it was It came out, and with that came Ocarina of Time, and so I was a wee 'un when that came out. I had played my SNES prior to that, but I had not played A Link to the Past

Jaymo: right.

RiRi: Until I was older. I was hooked, though, from Ocarina. Played the mainline Zeldas ever since.

Jaymo: Was that a magic moment when you got your N64 for Christmas? Because that's how I got mine, too.

RiRi: Do you know the video of the little brother and the sister screaming? My brother and I were approximately the same age. That could have been a video of us. It was very relatable.

Jaymo: Super pawing at the paper and everything like that.

RiRi: My brother just screaming in joy. And me just there, like, I'm excited, and I'm not really sure why.

Jaymo: Yeah, I think our first games were Super, um, Mario 64 and Goldeneye, I think, were the two that we started with.

RiRi: Yeah. So similar eras.

Jaymo: Yeah, absolutely.

RiRi: Nice.

Jaymo: Well, so, um, let's go back to the era that started it all back into the time of 1987 with the Legend of Zelda and released, like I said, back in 1987. According to the Nintendo Switch Online description, Ganon, the king of evil, has broken free of the dark world and has captured Hyrule's beloved Princess Zelda. But before she was caught, Princess Zelda managed to shatter the Triforce of wisdom and scatter its eight pieces throughout Hyrule You begin your adventure by finding a small Wooden sword in a dark cave. Then, as you grow in stature, experience, and strength, so do your weapons. Help Link collect the captured pieces of the Triforce, rescue the princess, and thwart Ganon's evil plans. So pretty epic description. I do kind of take issue, though, with them saying that you find a small wooden sword in a dark cave. Do you guys see my problem with that statement?

RiRi: A little Bit? A little bit. Find is generous.

Jaymo: Yeah, well, because it's given arguably one of the most famous video game lines ever. It's dangerous to go alone. Take this. He gives it to you, you're not finding it.

RiRi: You got to go in the cave, I guess.

Jaymo: I guess. Yeah. Don't erase the old man's biggest, um, contributor. Let's take a look at the box, um, art of these games. Since this is often back in the day, people's first impression, starting with the north American box art you guys are seeing here on the left. I have a lot of positive things to say about it. Mike what's your thought on the North American cover here?

Mike: Hmm. I mean, I think it is an interesting sort of more simplified representation of the game.

Jaymo: Yeah.

Mike: So I like heraldry. So there's an element of, you know, we have this crest that we've designed.

RiRi: I completely agree. The heraldic crest gives you immediately "Okay. I know the era I'm in. I know the fantasy vibes I'm going to get into."

Mike: Yeah. I'm not as sure about the things on there. So we have the two hearts.

Jaymo: Right.

Mike: Which I wish I could get two hearts that fast in this game,

RiRi: You start with more than three. That's generous in a Zelda game.

Jaymo: Yeah, it's true.

Mike: And then the key. And then I don't really know why we've got the lion.

RiRi: Yeah, the lion rampant is definitely a, uh. Put something else on there. Right.

Jaymo: Well, it's interesting because I'm the English teacher, I should know these things. But you guys, I think, just taught me a new word. Heraldry. Is that the study of ancient crests and things like that?

Mike: It's more. The general design of it would have been the term.

RiRi: It's a herald.

Jaymo: There you go. Cool. I learned a new word today. Look at that. Um, I'm with you guys. I think this is neat. I'm normally a big fan of, like, show me what the game actually plays like looks like. But to me, there's something. And I think it just might be because I have so many positive thoughts about Zelda as a franchise. So I think it's sort of positivity by association with this cover. But I really like it. Um, I think it's understated. I think it's stylish. I like the legend of being in this sort of handwritten font versus the block lettering of Zelda. And I was like, why would they do two hearts? But, guys, you think that's because that's, like, Zelda and Link? With Zelda and Link Has that ever been, like, an officially a romantic thing? RiRi?

RiRi: Link often has other romantic prospects in the games, whether explicitly or not. It's almost never actually Zelda.

Jaymo: Right.

RiRi: There's other princesses even, you know, in other games. Not to spoil too much for Mike but the romantic interest is often not Zelda explicitly. So Zelda is more like sibling predestined sibling kind of thing in a lot of them. And so I really think the hearts is just a health meter.

Mike: So their dynamic is more like a Luke and Leia thing.

RiRi: Yeah, yeah, Could, they might have kissed, but they should not probably be doing that.

Jaymo: So I've- I have not started Tears of the Kingdom yet, despite Breath of the Wild being my favorite Switch game of all time. Just haven't gotten around to it, and I know it's going to be a big time sink, but people were excited, though. And don't tell me, RiRi, because I actually don't know yet, but some people are saying that Zelda might be playable in that game, at least for sequences of it. And so I'm excited to see if that will disappoint me or not because I think that'd be really cool. I loved her in Breath of the Wild.

RiRi: I love The Zelda goes through a lot of different eras of personality, and her Breath of the Wild iteration is so fun. The nerdy scientist. No, it's not my favorite,

Jaymo: but who's your favorite Zelda?

RiRi: in Wind Waker She's a pirate. She's awesome. Tetra is absolutely awesome

Jaymo: yeah, Wind Waker is supposed to be great.

RiRi: She's a very active Zelda. Sometimes Zelda is not very active in the game. She's more of a guide or the communication with the goddesses or the source of power, like in Breath of the Wild. She's trapped,

Jaymo: right.

RiRi: And in Tears of the Kingdom. You get more active Zelda doing stuff in the story. Um, so I really like that in Wind Waker. So that's a hands down favorite for me.

Mike: So I have a cover question.

Jaymo: Sure.

Mike: This says includes invaluable maps and strategic playing tips.

RiRi: Boy, is it.

Mike: Is that referencing just the maps that are included in the manual, or was there additional material with this? Do you know?

Jaymo: So a big criticism that this game got upon release was, uh, how difficult it was to make your way through the game and to find all of these items and things like that. And, um, we're going to get to this for the trivia, but Shigeru Miyamoto had said that this game was supposed to be played as a community. You're supposed to get stuck and talk to your friends who also have the game. And I think eventually, and when it got released in North America, there was an idea of, you know, a, uh, North American suburbs don't necessarily have the tight knit community that they have in the Japanese cities and towns, so let's actually include more printed material to help people along. So I think it was just what they added to the manual. So, Mike reading the manual, I'm assuming that you find the maps and tips for the game in the pages of it.

Mike: Yeah. So actually the end of the manual is basically it tells you go to the cave, you'll get a sword, then go this direction, this direction, this direction. You get to the first dungeon area, and then it actually, for the second one just gives you, like, maybe 25 or 30 screens worth of map, and it's just like you're now here. The next one's over there. Go find it.

Jaymo: So it's just screenshots of the game?

Mike: I mean, put together to form one large map basically.

Jaymo: Huh,

RiRi: if you've ever seen a map of, like, super metroid, it's very similar.

Jaymo: Yeah, yeah. And speaking of maps, can we quickly talk about the Japanese cover here? Um, it shows Link I almost called him Zelda. It shows Link taking a knee here. He's got his little sword and shield out, looking pretty cute, I think. And in the background, you see at least part of Hyrule, you can see temples and the swamps and the forest and the death mountain in the background. But I don't know, I kind of prefer the North American one. I like the simple heraldry on display, and I think it'd be my preference. Which one do you guys like better?

RiRi: I lean North American too, only because that art style is so dated.

Jaymo: Little anime Link

RiRi: But additionally, the way the background is drawn and the text, it feels dated. And the north American cover is timeless.

Jaymo: Yeah.

RiRi: And they've continued with those gold motifs in other games. So it's very Zelda to me. And I think that's something that stuck out about this game, too, is it's so Zelda. Even if you've only played more modern games, they clearly had a strong vision for this game and what they wanted out of it, because everything that you know from your modern Zeldas is in this Zelda. And even the fact that, you know, those heart pieces are your health meter, things like that, they really stuck to it.

Jaymo: It's just kind of ingrained in us from playing so many of these games.

RiRi: Absolutely.

Jaymo: And, uh, I think it's fun to see, and we'll talk about the enemies later, but. Oh, like, uh, that's the first octorok. And see how that's evolved all the way up to the modern game. Yeah, that's really fun. Mike any thoughts on the covers?

Mike: I think definitely the north American one has more of a distinct style because it's not every game. Put a shield on the cover and just went, there we go.

Jaymo: Right. It's very confident.

Mike: Yeah. Although on the Japanese one, I am wondering if that is meant as a pun that, um, the high rule fantasy, if that's a play on high fantasy.

Jaymo: Okay. Yeah, because high fantasy is, like, a concept, you mean.

Mike: Yeah.

RiRi: Couldn't tell you.

Jaymo: I'd never thought of that before. Having the name fantasy on the cover though, it does kind of communicate what you're getting, I guess legend and a shield you'd probably know it's some sort of medieval knight game.

RiRi: Yeah.

Jaymo: So let me transition into some trivia here. So RiRi had said that the map for Zelda kind of resembles a Metroid map and that it's a series of interconnected screens. This game, published by Nintendo lead developer Shigeru Miyamoto, is a man who's known for taking inspiration from his personal life and using that to kind of educate his game design process. So his idea of an open world game was really revolutionary at the time, the way that you can just wander wherever and find things in whatever order hadn't really been attempted to this scale in video games before. And I guess he was inspired by his childhood love of exploring the gardens and forests surrounding Kyoto when he was younger. The game has a sliding door mechanic where it has this massive open world, but they're able to portray that on the eight bit NES by only having one screen at a time. And you sort of load the next screen and the camera slides over. And I guess that was based on his childhood home having a bunch of sliding doors. And he remembered feeling like each one was its own little world back when he was super young. But my favorite part is that we had mentioned before, Shigeru Miyamoto intended this game to be communal. You can't beat it without talking to people about where you found the mirror and where you found the torch. And I guess that idea would inspire the Animal Crossing series because that's a game where communication with your neighbors is the entire goal. So I thought that was kind of fun. What did you guys think about this game as sort of like an exploration of a world? Because I found it kind of whimsical and charming, even by today's standards.

Mike: Riri.

RiRi: Oh, me first. Okay. I was waiting on Mike It's your podcast. I completely agree. It is so much fun to go exploring, and just see what does this next path have? And to get stuck in the proto version of the lost woods.

Jaymo: Yeah,

RiRi: Yeah I was like they had that concept so early on. So if you're coming from a more modern Zelda and you're going back, you're going to be so pleasantly surprised with what you recognize the tropes you know, and understand how to play. And I think it combines puzzle solving in a really fun way. Even combat can be a bit of a puzzle for how to beat that particular enemy. Um, what to use to weaken them and then to get them out of your way. And the overworld has that in spades, and you want to see what's on the next screen. And they did that with very little resources, but it's so Zelda.

Jaymo: It's super cool.

RiRi: I love it

Jaymo: So, Mike how far, y'know not using any modern functionality like rewinds or whatever, how far did you get?

Mike: I made it into the third dungeon.

Jaymo: Okay.

Mike: And then just died a whole lot.

RiRi: Yeah.

Jaymo: Yeah it's tough.

Mike: And apparently I was not aware that this is supposed to be a whole communal thing. And so trying this on my own, that simply hit a point where it's just like, I did not have the sufficient weapons or skill or knowledge to get through that a lot.

Jaymo: You were very unprepared.

Mike: Oh, yeah.

RiRi: In these older games, that's so common, though. How many times as a kid did I say game cheats? This is unfair. And game design was a little bit unfair back then. It's not as polished as it is now. And so sometimes the struggle was execution, just literally a skill level thing. There was nothing else to help you get by. You just got to get good. And sometimes it's. Yeah. Oh, you got to go over here and talk to this guy and get the thing, and then it's super easy.

Mike: Yeah. I was able to get. I'll mention this early because, um, I did try this with the SP mode as well.

Jaymo: Yeah. So the SP mode is on the Nintendo Switch Online. Riri. I don't know- did you play this on the Switch emulator or did you play it in a different way?

RiRi: I did boot it up on the Switch emulator to see it rang all the bells. It felt exactly the same. I couldn't tell any difference from what I'd already played.

Jaymo: So some of the older games on the Nintendo Switch emulator have an SP version you can load up. And what Mike's referring to is that this game.

RiRi: Special version, right?

Jaymo: The special version, yeah

RiRi: yeah.

Jaymo: I think you just start with, like, a ton of money, right, Mike?

Mike: No, in this one, you start with what I presume to be the best of all the equipment. You have all the equipment, much more health. You're all ready to go. And so with that, I actually was able to get through the third dungeon, and then I found what I think is, like, the 6th dungeon, and that did not go well. So I was able to go slightly further.

Jaymo: Okay,

RiRi: That's pretty good

Jaymo: I think, you know, let's kind of just sort of blend the trivia with the joy pros of this game, because I think you talk about Zelda, you just kind of naturally start talking about cool things. Something that Riri mentioned about the lost woods. Mike do you know what she's referring to when she says the lost woods?

Mike: I presume so. There was someone I had found who was like, hey, when you go over there, go in these directions. And when I did that, I presume that's what the lost woods were, where if you don't go in the right order, you just keep coming back into on the same screen.

RiRi: Exactly. Yeah. And so you get lost and you have to leave, basically, and try again.

Jaymo: Yeah. And that has been done a lot in gaming, and I think this was the first example of that concept.

RiRi: It's certainly the first that I know of. And, uh, the fact that they continue with that concept is so fun in other games.

Jaymo: This, uh, information I got about Shigeru Miyamoto being inspired by gardens and sliding doors, it came from a book. I didn't read the book, but I read of the book. It was written by David Sheff, called How Nintendo Zapped an American Industry, Captured your Dollars, and Enslaved your Children.

RiRi: Oh, what a lovely title.

Jaymo: 1993.

RiRi: I wonder what his opinion of video gaming is as an industry.

Jaymo: And it's funny, so I was reading about this book, and people are like, surprisingly, the title is kind of the only critical part, and the rest is sort of just this unbiased history of Nintendo. And I'm like, I feel like

RiRi: they did it to sell books then.

Jaymo: Yeah, it's clickbait. It's 1993 clickbait. So, Riri or Mike, do you guys know why Link is named Link?

RiRi: I think he's based off of Peter Pan, if I remember correctly. Like adventures.

Jaymo: Yeah. His appearance is inspired by Peter Pan. The name Link is because he's supposed to be your connection to this fantasy world and he's like a blank slate. So he's sort of our Link to Hyrule and then Zelda. Do you guys know who Zelda's named after?

RiRi: No idea.

Jaymo: Uh, Zelda Fitzgerald, the wife of F. Scott Fitzgerald. Um, she's widely credited as kind of being, like, sort of the brains behind a lot of the literary creations. She's sort of a feminist icon. And, um, so Shigeru Miyamoto apparently just liked the sound of the name and thought she was a beautiful woman. So he stole the name Zelda for his game, and then that, in turn, inspired Robin Williams to name his daughter Zelda. And Zelda Williams is now a Zelda streamer.

RiRi: Isn't that cute? I love that.

Jaymo: It's so cute. Yeah. Did you ever see this commercial RiRi with?

RiRi: I did. Absolutely loved it.

Jaymo: Yeah. Robin and Zelda. I believe it was promoting the DS port of Ocarina of Time.

RiRi: Mhm.

Jaymo: And so just sitting down in two generations. Um, so I don't know. That warmed my heart a little bit.

RiRi: Yeah. That's sweet.

Jaymo: And Riri. Mike will know what this means if he remembers our past lessons. If I told you there was a version of this game called BS Zelda, would you believe me?

RiRi: BS Zelda.

Jaymo: BS Zelda.

RiRi: Released back in the day.

Jaymo: Yeah. So, Mike do you remember the Satellaview we talked about this, uh, you could download games to your Super Nintendo using satellite radio. This ring a bell?

RiRi: Oh, my goodness

Mike: This was part of our- I think this is the Dr. Mario episode.

Jaymo: Yes,

Mike: because it's the town without a name or something like that.

Jaymo: It's this weird game where you boot it up and you're in this kind of a ghost town, and then you walk into different buildings to access different online features, and one of them lets you download full games. So there was a remake of the original Legend of Zelda. Yeah. On the Super Nintendo. And most disturbingly, you are no longer playing as Link, you're playing as just these generic avatars. I don't know if you guys can see on the screenshot, but you're just like this kid with a backwards baseball cap.

RiRi: All right.

Jaymo: Yeah.

RiRi: Ness explores Hyrule I guess.

Jaymo: Yeah. It looks a lot like Ness from Earthbound, but I thought it was neat, though, because you can see in the screenshot like, it's fully updated graphics. It's basically.

RiRi: It does. I was like, that looks like Link's Awakening.

Jaymo: Yeah. Yeah. They utilize the greater graphics, and the coolest thing about it was, that because this is satellite radio, they're able to send limited data. So with the super Nintendo connected to the satellite radio, it would play sound files, including the first example of voiceover in a Zelda game. So I have a clip here of the old man giving you your weapon. If I could play it for you guys just about 10 seconds long so you'd hear this coming out of the satellite radio as you played the game

Recording: To begin, seek out the evil king's dungeon, set to lie somewhere within this land. Hurry, hero. Take this sword.

RiRi: That's amazing.

Jaymo: Yeah. I don't know if that is a guy recreating the original Japanese broadcast or, I mean, English is very commonly spoken in Japan, so, full disclosure, I don't know if that's the original recording or recreation of it. But I think that's neat, though, because you wouldn't get voice acting in games until much, much later.

RiRi: “So hungry I could eat an octorok” level of voice acting

Jaymo: So, RiRi, did I successfully teach you some things about Zelda you didn't already know?

RiRi: You did. I had no idea about BS Zelda. I didn't know about Zelda Fitzgerald. I didn't know where Link's name came from.

Jaymo: Um, BS just so you know, you don't say the wrong thing. BS stands for broadcast satellite. BS means something different over here in the States. But I guess that acronym doesn't mean the same thing in Japan,

RiRi: I guess not

Jaymo: So let's get in then, to more joy pros of this game. We kind of already talked about the environment, and just kind of a point that I wanted to mention is that one thing I really like about doing this podcast is that I really come to appreciate how the game designers were able to do a lot with very little. They were able to create this sense of immersion, this sense of a world. I think the mini map in the top left corner is a stroke of genius because I love that you can see your relative location, but it doesn't show you the whole world. So there's still that ability to get lost and feel a little unmoored. But what the game designers did, I don't know if you guys noticed this, they would have landmarks peek into the next screen. So if you guys look in the top left, you can see in the corner of the screen, you can clearly see the start of the river. And so the moment a player sees that, they go, okay, I know if I keep going left, I'll get more of the river area. And they'll do that with different colored rocks and different landmarks so that even though you don't have a super accurate map, you can still kind of get your bearings the way you would if you were actually going on a real life hike. I thought that was pretty cool.

RiRi: It's really clever for the limitations, right?

Jaymo: Yeah. And then you've got the desert areas where boulders start falling from above. The graveyard. It's so rude. Yeah, you're just trying to make your way.

RiRi: Come on.

Jaymo: And then the graveyard is spooky, too, because there's all these tombstones, and if you accidentally nudge one of them, a ghost comes out. So now you're like walking around on eggshells as you try to find the right tombstone to press on. I just think the sense of atmosphere in this game really held up.

RiRi: Mhm. Completely agree on that part. They had such a vision for this game. They had a really strong vision, and it comes through because of the limitations. That you can still understand exactly what they were going for anyway, is a testament to how good they are at designing games. Really well done.

Jaymo: I'm happy you're saying that, because part of me worried that going back to this, it wouldn't have aged well.

RiRi: I think it does, personally. You got to understand, the difficulty is a time thing. But the other parts of it, the story and how the gameplay works, you know, if you've played Ocarina of Time or Link to the Past or other games after; a graveyard, I'm going to mess with those gravestones. I bet there's a cave under one. You know what I mean? That's a part of it. And so the fact that it was there right from the start is really fun for me, going as somebody who's played a lot more modern and then gone back to this.

Jaymo: Yeah, 100%. So I have to give a shout out to a Pinterest user. Blair Martin created this, and I absolutely butchered it. But I want to give credit because this is the only place I could find a comprehensive list of all the enemies with their names on it. I thought the enemy variety was a big, pleasant surprise. I felt like every few minutes, I'd be encountering something new, and I'd be like, well, that's a monster I haven't seen before. And a lot of them just shoot projectiles at you, whether it's an arrow or a fireball or some laser ball or whatever, but they all have these distinct behaviors and these weaknesses. RiRi, you had said that even the combat's sort of a puzzle in that each enemy has some do's and don'ts that you got to sort of keep in mind.

RiRi: Exactly.

Jaymo: Yeah. So any favorites or anyone's? For both of you, Mike I want to hear from you, too, especially since you were not like me. Whenever an enemy would hit me, I would rewind, because I don't want to lose my long range projectile.

RiRi: Yes, the projectile is vital in this one.

Jaymo: Yeah. It's a mechanic I really hate in old games, where you only get to be fully powered while you have your full health. And in this game, I think it's like you got to keep your power sword powered up because so many enemies sniping you from far, I can't imagine playing through this game without the ability to rewind.

Mike: And I will say the more frustrating part is with dungeons, because it just puts you back at the front of the start of the dungeon. But at three hearts.

RiRi: Yup. That's very difficult

Jaymo: Oh like after dying?

Mike: Yeah, when you die. And so you start off at empty hearts, and then

Jaymo: That's brutal.

Mike: It is incredibly brutal.

RiRi: And then you've got to go get a fairy or something.

Mike: Yeah. And I have no idea how to do that. For within the dungeons, it just became an element of luck. The manual does tell you to go find the fairy, like, anytime you're restarting on the. And it's like, oh, you can go find it. Wait, we're not going to tell you that, but you should go do that. So in the overworld, I knew how to do that, but not in a dungeon. Which did mean, I think the Hallmaster was a total jerk the first time I dealt with one of those.

RiRi: Yeah, wallmasters are the worst. "Ceiling masters," I've sometimes called them that. What's funny is all of these names are very. All the way through all the Zeldas Right. Even the weird one, like the bubbles. Bubble drives me nuts because if you know from Ocarina of Time, there are bubble enemies in the game. They're not called bubbles because a bubble already exists. It's the skulls that are surrounded by fire. The bubbles are called shabooms.

Jaymo: Shabooms. That's amazing. Speaking of shaboom, I don't know if we're going to get a chance to talk about this, but the fairies, okay, they're kind of a controversial figure. I'm not sure if you guys have heard of this or if this is just maybe outrage culture online making something out of nothing. I don't know. But in this game, am I understanding you both correctly? That if you collected a fairy, you would get all the hearts back that you'd earned, even if you've died?

RiRi: Yeah.

Mike: Yes.

RiRi: You fill- you put your heart meter back up. And there's fairies in the overworld you can go to, and then there's fairies in dungeons you can find.

Jaymo: Okay. So there's this sort of motif, and I think it's a lot more implied in the second game we're going to talk about where Link is having sex in order to heal.

Mike: I can see it.

RiRi: I don't - Uh, that's not my head canon. I'll put it that way.

Jaymo: Okay. But, RiRi, do you know what I'm talking about? In Breath of the Wild

RiRi: Yes, I've heard it.

Jaymo: The fairies are kind of

RiRi: They're a little oversexualized and they have been the great fairies. I would be embarrassed if my mom saw me playing, and there was a great fairy on screen I'd be like, oh, don't look.

Jaymo: Yeah, Mike you got to look this up later. The great fairies in Breath of the Wild, um, they're quite juicy.

RiRi: They’re something.

Jaymo: Yeah.

RiRi: I don't think Link is into it, though. It seems like he's not happy about it.

Jaymo: So that's why I said they're kind of controversial, that some people are like, how into this is link? And is he doing this just to get more hearts? Because I would feel kind of bad. Did you guys know that one of these enemies can be defeated using your voice?

RiRi: In the original?

Jaymo: Yeah. So the Super Nintendo, or, sorry, the Nintendo version when it was originally released was not a cartridge. It was a disc. It was the Famicom Disk System. And on the Disk System, the second player controller had a built in microphone.

RiRi: Nintendo drives me crazy that they're so innovative in their controllers and stuff, and they've always done that. You're telling me this now?

Jaymo: Yeah. So, Pols voice. I don't know if you guys remember that one. It's the little kind of mouse looking thing. It's over here in the kind of left side of the screenshot. They're these really tough enemies, and they're just these little mice hopping around, but they're kind of aggressive, and they take a ton of damage. And if you shouted into the player two controller, it would kill them all immediately. That mechanic was repeated on the Wii U and 3DS versions because those systems have microphones. And I just found this hilarious. They actually hid a feature on the Switch version we all played. Apparently, if you press the left trigger and the left shoulder button at the same time, it will trigger the code to make the game think it hears you, and it'll kill all these enemies instantly.

RiRi: Today I learned.

Jaymo: There you go.

RiRi: That's wild.

Jaymo: So, m you guys said you didn't like the Wallmasters. I thought the Like-Likes. I think the like like is my biggest grudge. It's the tube worm, because if they snag you, RiRi, what happens?

RiRi: You lose your shield.

Jaymo: Yeah. So in this game, though, the upgraded shield lets you block a lot more projectiles. But the game didn't tell me that it happened. I had to just notice that Link's shield was a bit puny and had to be like, wait, why isn't my shield as girthy as it used to be? And then I had to find out. I had to rebuy it because a Like-Like ate it at some point. And I didn't know that was what was happening

RiRi: Yup, yup. In later games, they'll steal your tunics, they'll steal your shields. It's so -

Jaymo: freaking Like-Likes

RiRi: Yeah. I hate Like-Likes

Jaymo: Mike, do you have any faves or most hateds out of the Zelda enemies?

Mike: I will say I feel like this really got ahead of the game in terms of the Internet's terms for snakes.

RiRi: Nope rope

Jaymo: Are snakes called ropes?

Mike: Yeah, the snakes are called ropes. The same realm of the Internet that will refer to, like, a raccoon as, like, a trash panda will refer to as a snake as a nope rope.

Jaymo: Nope Rope. See, I learned something now.

RiRi: I think in this game in particular, the Zora hurts my feelings the most because in early games, they're enemies. And they're enemies up through Link's Awakening. Well, they're certainly in a Link to the Past. They're enemies. They don't talk. They only attempt to hurt you. And it's not until you get Ocarina of Time that they're just normal people that you can talk to.

Mike: Were those the water things?

RiRi: Yep, those are Zoras

Jaymo: Are those the sexy fish people from Breath of the Wild?

RiRi: If you think they're sexy, they're certainly fish people

Jaymo: Oh, come on. I am not alone in thinking that.

RiRi: No, you're not. No. I think the Internet has a huge crush on Sidon, and obviously Link does, too, because he was engaged to Mipha

Jaymo: Okay, yeah. Talking like I'm some kind of creep.

RiRi: No, but.

Jaymo: So Zora, those enemies are the people who become your allies later.

RiRi: Yeah. And I think the Goriya are supposed to maybe be an early Goron. It's not really clear to me, but I think,

Jaymo: oh sure.

RiRi: You can kind of see the through line of that,

Jaymo: Right, the appearance and the name similarities.

RiRi: Yeah. Gleeok, though, you don't really see that again until Tears of the Kingdom, I think.

Jaymo: Yeah.

RiRi: If there's other Gleeoks, I don't remember. But-

Jaymo: the two headed dragon here.

RiRi: Yeah.

Mike: I just say the Zora,

RiRi: maybe Wind Waker? I don't know.

Mike: The Zora was also very frustrating as an enemy because I think that was one of two enemies that I dealt with where I eventually just had to google what the heck I was supposed to do with them because it's like, I can't kill them.

RiRi: They're rude. Very rude.

Mike: It appears to be that you have to hit them twice, um, before they go back under the water.

RiRi: I just always run. Gosh,

Mike: I was like, there's a thing that's shooting me, I should try to kill this. And I can't kill this, and it's because I don't know how I'm supposed to hit it twice in that time frame.

Jaymo: So the reason why you found it impossible is that your sword, projectile, it's not fast enough to fire twice before it dives back in. So you have to use something I'm guessing you probably never got, which was the bow and arrow.

RiRi: Yeah, the bow.

Mike: I was waiting for it to get close enough that I could try and hit it with the sword, which was also still not fast enough.

Jaymo: Yeah, for sure

Mike: I never had a bow and arrow in this.

RiRi: But if you have the option to run from the Zoras, just run. It's not worth it.

Jaymo: And then, um. Actually, let's get into this now here, RiRi-

Mike: The bubble was the other one that I had to look up because I couldn't figure out how to beat.

RiRi: You have to get the fire to go out around it first, basically, before it'll take damage

Mike: in this, I think. They just can't be.

RiRi: They just can't be. That may be true.

Mike: Yeah. In some of them, you cannot defeat them. Which also was confusing, because it was in this, where I thought I needed to beat one to clear a level so that a door would open. And after about ten minutes of trying, maybe five minutes, um, it turns out that in that case, the thing keeping the door closed was that I needed to move a block, which I didn't know I could do.

RiRi: Yeah, move a hidden block . Or move a block that it's not clear is movable. It looks like all the other blocks you've ever seen.

Mike: Yeah. I'm m honestly not sure how that happened.

Jaymo: What I really love right now, though, is that we talked about how Shigeru Miyamoto, in designing this game, wanted to make a game that would inspire discussion and shared secrets and stuff, and we're doing that now in 2023. We're still trying to figure out how these enemies work.

RiRi: You got to use the recorder to turn the fire off. That's what it is. The ocarina.

Jaymo: Oh, the musical instrument.

RiRi: Yeah. It's technically a recorder, but I would call it ocarina.

Jaymo: Stuff that the game doesn't explain

RiRi: and that will put out the fire

Mike: Oh and then just name wise. I do appreciate the Tektite .

Jaymo: because it's the-

RiRi: terrible. I hate Tektites.

Jaymo: What's the pun?

Mike: Uh, I wouldn't call it a pun, but a Tektite is also the name for - so when a large meteor hits the earth. Something that's leaving a crater.

Jaymo: Okay.

Mike: It hits, it will create this crater. So now it's ejected a bunch of material up into the- back up. That material that then falls back down can form Tektites, which are kind of teardrop shaped bits of rock.

Jaymo: I love that the name is that clever. And then we've got rope for the snake.

RiRi: Teardrop shapes, Mike?

Mike: Yeah, because they're basically coming back down through the- because they're forming in atmosphere.

RiRi: In Majora's Mask there's a moon's tear. That's a teardrop shaped rock that falls from the sky.

Jaymo: Wow.

RiRi: That's crazy. Sorry.

Jaymo: No, don't be sorry. That's fascinating that there's this whole -

RiRi: that that's connected.

Jaymo: Yeah. Ah, cool. Um, so, RiRi, have you beaten this game?

RiRi: No. Never. Maybe not ever. Maybe never will. Not sure it's worth it.

Jaymo: Did you beat this game, Mike?

Mike: God, no. I don't understand how anyone ever did. And that this was apparently built in with the. "Oh no, this is all supposed to be figured out collaboratively" kind of thing. Certainly points towards how this apparently was supposed to be done. And that that was apparently the plan, because trying to do this on my own, I'm like, I have no idea.

RiRi: I think your best bet these days is to use a walkthrough. Use the forums.

Mike: Yeah. And it does sort of- the one thing that I was keeping in mind that I knew existed was, which I know because of movies. So that's helpful, was that Nintendo Power did a map of the whole game, um, which I only know about because there's a movie called Under the Silver Lake, which is a neo noir from a few years back where

RiRi: Mike you're killing me

Mike: where someone-

Jaymo: He's got the weirdest reference.

Mike: Yeah, it's a weird movie, but where someone has to use, I think it's they have to decode, like, a song to find out that they need to use the Nintendo Power Zelda map and overlay it on a cartoon drawing of Los Angeles to find something.

RiRi: That's the greatest movie plot I've ever heard.

Jaymo: Yeah. That's incredible.

Mike: Yeah. The whole premise is that there's all these hidden messages encoded in that are there if you can find

Jaymo: What is this movie called?

Mike: Under the Silver Lake, it's got Andrew Garfield in it

Jaymo: Terrible title. Oh, it's like a recent movie

Mike: Yeah.

Jaymo: Oh, all right, I got to look into this.

Mike: Yeah, no, it's something like I saw after moving back to LA, and I saw it in a theater, and at the end of it, I was just staring at the screen, just like, “the heck was that?” And a guy next to me looks over and is like "First time?" and I'm like "uh, yeah" and he's like, "yeah, that'll happen."

Jaymo: I had no idea this weird movie that had to be decoded. But speaking of decoding, let's go into our joy cons. I think it's pretty obvious some of the things we like about this game. Let's criticize it a bit. So as much as I think it was part of the design, I think that this game is so opaque as far as what you're supposed to do next and the fact that you have to crisscross this huge overworld map to get an item on the east shore of the island that will help you get through something on the western part of the mountain ranges. It's so unintuitive as far as what you're supposed to do next that I think you got to play it with a guide. So I want to make my official recommendation. ZeldaDungeon.net has what you guys see here. RiRi, are you familiar with this site?

RiRi: Absolutely. It's super helpful for those- when you're getting into the more obscure parts of a game where you can beat the game without getting everything. If you want to get everything, ZeldaDungeon.

Jaymo: Yeah. So when you stream this game, what's your goal? Are you just goofing or are you trying to show your viewers what to do?

RiRi: Um, for this one, it's kind of just like, look at this. Look how crazy this old game is. And look how bad I am. I'm so bad at it. It's so difficult. And that's something that I've talked about too, where it's like the designers of these games are not so removed from the arcade era in which game difficulty and skill level meant more money for the game developers, more quarters, literally.

Jaymo: Well said.

RiRi: And so I think that's just part of it. Old games are hard. I say that all the time. Old games are hard. like that might be- That could be a shirt.

Jaymo: Yeah, that could be.

RiRi: Old games are hard. And so I think that's the biggest joy Con is it's hard in a way that feels unfair to modern gamers. Dark souls. Hard is very precise, right?

Jaymo: Yes.

RiRi: There's no precision in these. Sometimes I didn't move that way. Or that enemy, how did he hit me? That kind of difficulty is very present. And so, no, I've never beaten it. Randomizers are more fun, if you would consider that beating it. But often the goal of a randomizer is to just get a certain number of Triforce pieces. And so you may not have to go through the whole game to, “win” the randomizer.

Jaymo: I wonder if any of us have beaten, hmm.

Mike: yeah, I wonder if anyone has beaten this, person who's gradually getting ready with their phone. Hey, Jeremy, did you beat this game?

Jaymo: I Nintendid.

RiRi: Hey, good job. GG

Jaymo: I was like you guys are being rude, I've asked you both if you've beaten it. No one's asking me. I beat this game you guys

RiRi: Oh, sorry GGs, GGs

Jaymo: Thank you. But it took ZeldaDungeon.net. That's been my social media for the past couple of weeks here. Just being told the path I need to take and just rewinding literally every time I got hit just to keep my long range attack. But I beat it, and I was very sad to watch, Cinemassacre did a stream of this. And if you guys know that they're the studio that puts on the Angry Video Game Nerds, if you guys remember that guy.

RiRi: Oh, yeah.

Jaymo: So they did a run through. Did you guys know that you can get all the way to Ganon without ever accepting the sword from the old man?

RiRi: Yup May not get the sword right away. Running through the world without a sword sucks.

Jaymo: Have you done a stream of that, RiRi?

RiRi: Yes, I have. I hated it.

Jaymo: Oh, my God. It seems brutal. So Mike asked how, and it's this combination of if you get items in the right order, you get bombs, boomerangs. You get all these items that basically stand in place of the sword. Except for the final boss. Gannon needs to be hit with the sword or he won't materialize to take damage in the first place. And it's just like, it makes me mad that they didn't think, you know, I wish this game was fully beatable swordless. I would never do it, but I would just like knowing you could.

RiRi: There are other ways to beat Ganon in future Zelda games that become very tropey throughout the series.

Jaymo: Oh, yeah? Like what?

RiRi: Very famously Ocarina of Time, you can beat Ganon with a bottle. An empty bottle.

Jaymo: What?

RiRi: Yes. I do it on stream all the time. It's my favorite way of beating Gannon.

Jaymo: You mean like a fairy- An empty.

RiRi: An empty fairy bottle. It's actually easier.

Jaymo: You suck him in. What do you do?

RiRi: No. So you have to play ping pong. The traditional Ganondorf ping pong. Right. Um, so he throws a ball of light at you, and you have to hit it back at him with your sword until one of you gets hit. Right. And so you want him to get hit. If you parry with the bottle, it has a much wider hit box. It's way easier to kill Gannon with the bottle.

Jaymo: That's hilarious. I love that

RiRi: Also, in a Link to the Past, you can use the net to damage Gannon.

Jaymo: Like the, is it normally used for fishing?

RiRi: the fairy catching net?

Jaymo: Oh, okay.

RiRi: Yeah, Like it looks like a bug catching net, but use it to catch fairies or bees in the past, you can hit Gannon with the net.

Jaymo: There's some sort of beautiful metaphor there of these peaceful, bug catching things are used to bring down the ultimate evil.

RiRi: I think it was completely unintentional. I am not sure. At least the original one was. The later ones seem to be, like, continuing the joke in some way.

Jaymo: Okay, very cool.

RiRi: But yeah, no, I think that's always fun. It's sad that this one, you have to have the sword, though.

Jaymo: Do you guys have any other criticisms of the game beyond the sort of unfair difficulty of it?

Mike: I guess that they are within that realm, which I think, to me, the two things would be in the overworld, if you die, it resets you back to your very starting point. And this is a, uh, lot of overworld. It's confusing overworld. It's not clear where the heck you're going. Starting back there feels harsh. Rather than if there was some way of having a crude checkpoint system that kind of puts you back to something. Like if I had a way to, say, put me back to the outside of this dungeon or something. If I die in the overworld, that seems like it would be more fair. And then the other thing in the same realm is going to a situation where once you've gotten an additional heart container thing that every time you die, you start at three hearts. And in the overworld, there was a way to, that was slightly frustrating, but to get back up to full health. In the dungeons, it just feels really unforgiving because then it's a probability thing of whether or not you can kind of stumble into something dropping enough hearts or dropping a fairy. And that just feels frustrating because at that point, it's almost like, I wish I didn't have the extra heart container because at that point, it's hurting me more than it's helping.

Jaymo: And RiRi's talked about how difficult this game gets. And so I'm sure she's seen the later dungeons, it becomes like a bullet hell game with the statues. Like, all the statues in the dungeon start like shooting fireballs at you. It's like every freaking room. This just gets relentless.

RiRi: And the dungeons feel unnecessarily long sometimes. Like, why is there so much? But it goes back to, that was the way games were designed, right? The replayability factor comes from how often you die.

Jaymo: Can you guys still see my screen?

RiRi: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It's so big. Look at it. It's wild and it's a maze.

Jaymo: This is the final level, Mike It's called death mountain, and the red path is the path you should go. But then the yellow path is the teleportation. So you step in a staircase, and you'll warp to a different part of the map. So how could you possibly keep track of this, even on a piece of graph paper, drawing it yourself, you're just mean. There's challenging, and then there's mean.

RiRi: Yeah. So games had longevity from being so hard to beat that you played it over and over and over.

Jaymo: Yeah. Well. Well said. Hey, Mike can you see on the shared screen, can you see where my mouse is? Does that work? So, Mike do you see- This is the starting area of the map you're referring to every time you died, right?

Mike: Yep.

Jaymo: Do you see these rocks in the little diamond formation?

Mike: Yes.

Jaymo: And then you see that they're also a diamond formation of rocks up here.

Mike: Yes.

Jaymo: So if I told you that these were a fast travel system so you could jump around and not have to walk across the entire map upon death, would that make you feel better? That there's a solution or worse, because they hid it from you?

Mike: I'm going to go worse.

RiRi: Oh, no. So the fairy, it's not far from the starting point, is almost mid map. There's a fairy in a pond.

Jaymo: Yeah,

RiRi: sorry.

Jaymo: Okay.

Mike: The ferry in the pond I found.

RiRi: Oh, good. At least you got that. I don't know.

Mike: Yeah, no, I had that, so if I died in the world, I could get back to that. The problem was, then I had to get through a lot of stuff that tended to kill me.

RiRi: You do. And if you have the upgraded shield, it's not so bad. But if a Like-Like ate it,

Jaymo: Ugh, freaking Like-Likes

Mike: I don't know where to get shields and sword. Actually, no. I stumbled into the shield, getting a better sword I have no idea. And apparently a bunch of stuff is actually hidden. Not just, like, hard to find, but-

RiRi: literally hidden.

Jaymo: Yeah.

Mike: Which just feels...

RiRi: Rude

Mike: cruel.

Jaymo: Yeah. The most powerful sword is. Or maybe it's not the most powerful. RiRi, you might know. It's, like, behind one of the gravestones, and it's just a random gravestone in this big graveyard, and you push it. And there's a secret cave where you get a powerful sword.

RiRi: I don't remember. So sometimes the swords are progressive in that. Whichever one you get next upgrades you to the next level, even if you're not-

Jaymo: that'd be good.

RiRi: I can't remember if it's progressive or not, but-

Jaymo: not in this one. And most frustratingly, this was my biggest gaming headache for this game was that I found the more powerful sword, and the old man was just like, come back when you're ready. That's all he said. Come back when you're ready. And I'm like, um, uh, I'm ready now. But I didn't know how to tell him that; you can only wield the more powerful swords if you have enough hearts.

RiRi: That's just like in Breath of the Wild, right? You can't get the master sword till you have enough hearts to pull it out.

Jaymo: But how good was that moment when you finally pulled that sword out?

RiRi: What a reference, though, right? I wouldn't have even thought of that as a reference, but it totally is.

Jaymo: Yup, yup yup. Um, any other thoughts on the original Legend of Zelda before we dive into the sequel?

Mike: I don't think I have any.

RiRi: No, I'm good. Let's go.

Jaymo: Okay, so let's go then to Zelda II, the Adventure of Link

RiRi: Let's talk some trash.

Jaymo: Let's talk some trash. Yeah, let's talk over my music.

RiRi: Sorry, I didn't know you play music.

Jaymo: I think it adds something. So. Released in 1988, this is the sequel to the Legend of Zelda. According to the Nintendo Switch Online description, Link returns to Hyrule to search for the Triforce and to awaken Princess Zelda from an endless sleep. So, RiRi, when you said that Zelda is more absent in some games, yeah. you ain't kidding.

RiRi: Mm hmm.

Jaymo: Embark on a quest to find the Triforce of courage and save Hyrule from ruin. Learn magic spells, talk to people in towns to get clues, collect items to increase your power, and explore six palaces where the underlings of the evil Ganon await you. This sequel to the adventure classic uses a side scrolling visual engine unique to the series for more technical combat, and it features more in depth world roaming as Link encounters townsfolk while on his quest. So let's take a look at the, um, box art because I think that description is pretty straightforward. What do you guys think about this? RiRi, you said same color schemes, like, instantly recognizable as a Zelda title.

RiRi: Mhm.

Jaymo: And, I don't know, any thoughts on this sword here?

RiRi: Whose sword is that? What sword is that? You know what I mean?

Jaymo: It's kind of.

RiRi: That's not recognizable.

Mike: Looks more like a dagger.

RiRi: I think Link is often depicted wielding a pretty short sword, uh, so that kind of fits in a way.

Jaymo: What are you trying to say about me?

Mike: I'm not sure why this sword is getting criticized when I feel like at the first game uses what looks much more like a fencing sword.

Jaymo: I was wondering if you're going to say something about that, Mike I'm going back to it right now.

RiRi: Is rapier the word, is that what kind of sword that is? Yeah.

Jaymo: Yes.

RiRi: Whose sword is that?

Mike: The Japanese box art, I think, uses that sword, uses both swords. It uses that sword and uses a normal one,

RiRi: the one we're used to seeing, Link is holding.

Jaymo: Yeah, but I mean, does a Zelda- I'm trying to think of that, um, samurai warrior spin off I played. Do you ever play that one, RiRi, where it's like you can play as all the different heroes from, like, Breath of the Wild and other games, and you just do super attacks on a horde of 100 enemies?

RiRi: You mean Age of Calamity? Uh, the dynasty warriors. Dynasty warriors spin off. Yeah.

Jaymo: What did I say? Did I say samurai warriors?

RiRi: Samurai warriors. I was like...

Jaymo: I'm sorry.

RiRi: No no no. yeah, that 1 v 100. Yes, I did play that one.

Jaymo: Did you like it?

RiRi: It's fun. It's not very Zelda, but it's fun. And I think it's the opposite of what my opinion on Zelda two. It's also not very Zelda, and it's not very fun.

Jaymo: Ooh, oh no. Okay.

RiRi: Mike has heard my spiel on Zelda II already. He knows what's coming. I think that's why I got asked to be on this podcast.

Jaymo: Uh oh, I'm going to fight you on this one.

RiRi: Okay, that's fine.

Jaymo: I was just going to say, though, my wife and I played through all of Hyrule warriors, and we got to, like, the last level, and she fell out of interest with the game, and I was like, yeah, we're going to play that again. And she's like, ah, just play through it without me. I was like, "but, but" and I never finished it.

RiRi: Yeah,

Jaymo: but that games are so repetitive, though.

RiRi: I think finishing games is overrated, in my opinion.

Jaymo: Ah, okay.

RiRi: If you look at steam statistics, for example, they have achievements that are right there, and it'll say how many percent of players have gotten this achievement? The ones for beating games are such a small percentage more often than not. And so I think that's not how most people play games. And there's no shame in not finishing a game, especially, it's for fun, which is why I don't fuss too much about. No, I've never beaten the original Legend of Zelda, and no, I'm probably not going to.

Jaymo: Yeah, I like to fuss, though, because it was really hard, even with rewinding. So do you guys know, looking at the Zelda II box art, why there's a hole in the box up there in the top left?

RiRi: I would never have had a physical copy of this, so I have no idea.

Jaymo: Yeah. The NES cartridge was gold. Like, they put, like, a gold paint on it to really make it stand out from all the other games. And so they wanted you to see the gold cartridge, so they're teasing you with it.

RiRi: Majora's Mask also had a gold cartridge, so that's definitely a thing they did.

Jaymo: I love, though, and that didn't occur to me until I was looking at the box art- Important for context. When the Legend of Zelda, the original game, was released in North America, Zelda II was already out in Japan. And so when they made the box art for the original Legend of Zelda, they made it as a companion piece to the sequel. So you have these two sitting side by side. You got the sword and the shield.

RiRi: That's nice.

Mike: And then there's some other, better, game with a shield

RiRi: They definitely work together

Mike: hidden someplace else. they don't tell you about

Jaymo: Mike's still bitter. I thought that was kind of neat and then you've got the Japanese disc system cover here, which - Riri has this also aged poorly in your mind, this kind of anime Link?

RiRi: Yeah, i'm going to have to say

Jaymo: Eh, don't like it?

RiRi: Yeah,

Jaymo: It really bugs me, though, that, the tree is very clearly- there's a strong wind blowing to the right, and then Zelda or Link's hair is completely unaffected. He's got like, a lot of gel or something.

Mike: I don't think that's wind because the tree has no leaves or anything. So I don't think it would be that impacted.

RiRi: I think it's just a gnarled looking tree. Can we call it that? And then we've achieved, uh, physics,

Jaymo: Or as I say in my class, ganarled. So I can help my students spell it

RiRi: Yeah. Oh, gnarled. Very good. I think, um, it's not the most- how do I say this? Uh, well drawn Link

Jaymo: Aw I think its not bad

RiRi: He's a little awkward. I'm sorry. What I like about this cover, though, is it splits the Triforce into three.

Jaymo: Cool, right?

RiRi: That's the first indicator of that. That is really nice.

Mike: Yeah. I'd like to take this moment to get some clue what the heck a Triforce is, because I don't really know going into this. And then in the first game, we have the Triforce which is eight pieces, which to me just said, okay, so it's a triangle

Jaymo: Octopus

Mike: and then this turned into recover the, like, now there's three Triforces.

RiRi: Yeah. I can give you the lore, the in game lore, if you want.

Jaymo: Do it. Do it, do it.

RiRi: Okay, so for this to make sense, you have to understand that the chronological release order of Zelda is not the timeline of Zelda

Jaymo: Wait, RiRi, I have a slide for this.

RiRi: I'm so glad. Okay. All right, so this is weird. I'm not going to lie. Um, so do you remember how we were talking about how, like, oh, there's so many tropes and Easter eggs of other Zeldas There's lots of references to other Zeldas? People have always speculated how different Zelda games are connected because they're not inherently so, they're not quite direct sequels a lot of the time. And so there's been debate on the chronological timeline of Zelda for a long time, and Nintendo put out the Hyrule Historia, which included this timeline of, uh, theoretically the. The order of the legends, if you will. And I think thinking of them as legends helps. Right. They're a story. They're not canonical necessarily. Not everything about them is canonical. I think people took the easter eggs a little far, in my opinion. So the way this is put together feels to me like a lot of the way that physicists will reach for a grand, unifying theory of the universe. It's very similar.

Jaymo: You're really elevating this.

RiRi: It's a reach in that same way. Like, we really want it. We want this all connected, it all pieces together. This goes to that. And these puzzles have meaning, and they kind of really don't in the design, in my opinion, it was not intentional. Timelines, you can see it splits into three timelines. I mean, come on.

Jaymo: And is that because Ocarina of Time involves time travel?

RiRi: Correct. It's the time travel from Ocarina of Time. That is the reason there are three timelines. So there's the failure timeline, the fallen hero in this one, and then there's the child and adult timeline. So theoretically, what happens in Ocarina of Time, right, is Link starts out as a child. He goes to pick up the master sword, but he's not ready. So Rauru, the light sage, freezes him for seven years. During those seven years Hyrule falls to pieces and you have to take the world back from Ganon. But when you do that, Zelda sends you back in time with the- like she takes the ocarina from you, sends you back in time to be a child again, but her timeline continues forward without a hero. There's no more hero in that timeline that gets rebirthed, right? The idea being Ganon, Link and Zelda are all getting respawned. They're connected by destiny.

Jaymo: Right.

RiRi: But in the child timeline, there is a hero, and the events of seven years later in Ocarina of Time never happen. Um, so the world never gets taken over by Ganon, so to speak, and the adult timeline, and then saved, but there's no more hero. And then the other timeline is Link just dies. Link is killed before he can ever-

Jaymo: That's dark.

RiRi: It's dark. And so that's the idea of the timelines. But do you see why it's a reach in my mind? It's like people want to reach for this so badly. They want so badly for it to all connect and make sense. And it just, Uh, and I think Nintendo is kind of leaning towards that it doesn't matter because they've put Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom “so far in the future, it doesn't matter”.

Jaymo: Right.

RiRi: It's so far in the future, all of it happens. It's like a Dragon Break from Elder Scrolls.

Jaymo: So do you have a theory about this then, RiRi? Because I don't know, Mike and RiRi, if you noticed something interesting about Link's hand on this Japanese cover.

RiRi: Lefty and righty.

Jaymo: Well, and he's got the mark, uh, what's this called? The mark of the Triforce

RiRi: He's got the Triforce on his hand. Yeah. And so,

Jaymo: right, but that doesn't appear in Breath of the Wild.

RiRi: Um, it's a stylistic choice, I think

Jaymo: Okay, you think I'm reaching?

RiRi: Well, okay, so Link switches from being a lefty to a righty, uh, because of the Wii. Because most people are right handed, and the Wii was. You're holding the Wiimote like a sword. And so in the older box arts, Link is a lefty and the Triforce is on his left hand.

Jaymo: Wait let me see, I'm gonna go back

RiRi: He starts holding the sword with his right hand.

Jaymo: Yeah, look at that. You're right. He is a lefty.

RiRi: Mhm.

Jaymo: I never realized that before. That's fascinating. It was just because of the Wiimote

RiRi: He's one of the most famous lefties, right? Like, when you're talking about famous lefties, like, Link is a lefty.

Jaymo: Link's a lefty. That's so cool.

RiRi: He's a southpaw. Which is why he's so effective at combat. They don't see it coming.

Mike: It would also mean he's better for attacking because the stairwells usually were set up in castles, so that right handed swordsmen would have their arm against the wall and they wouldn't have as much motion

RiRi: You're exactly right, Mike. It's very effective in combat to be a lefty because it's kind of like being a left handed pitcher. Right. It's just different. And so people aren't used to it. You're not training for that necessarily. So you get a bit of an advantage.

Jaymo: I don't know if they put that much thought into it, but I'd like to think they did.

RiRi: I think they did. I honestly do. Because when you think about that through line of the story of he's exploring in the forest. He's an adventurer.

Jaymo: Yeah,

RiRi: I honestly think it was intentional, personally.

Mike: I have a question how this fits into the lore elements then as well

RiRi: Oh right, we didn't talk about the timeline. So in Skyward Sword, which is theoretically the chronological start, Zelda is the incarnation of the goddess Hylia who gifted the power of the Triforce to the world. The Triforce was broken into three, so it can never be reunited again because, uh, it was too powerful. And then you start to get into. One is the Triforce of power, one is the Triforce of wisdom. One is the Triforce of courage. Power belonging to Ganon, wisdom belonging to Zelda and courage belonging to Link. And that is why you have also three different goddesses. In later iterations you have Din, Farore and uh, Nayru, each respective of the powers and each holding a piece of the Triforce. So that's the lore why there's three. In Ocarina of Time, Din created the firmament, the earth and was the goddess of power. Farore breathed life into the world and created the greenery and living things. And Farore created the sky. And so you have that red, green and blue motif as well in those three. So that's kind of the idea of the Triforce

Mike: So when this turns into three Triforces, this is referred. The thing that was broken into eight pieces when put together is made up of three things.

RiRi: I think the original is a single Triforce, right? Is the single piece?

Jaymo: Right. Like a triangle

RiRi: So each one person having three are the three pieces of, uh, the Triforce

Mike: Okay.

RiRi: Is the way it's usually referred to.

Mike: So we were dealing with a subset of this in the last.

RiRi: Yeah. So those eight pieces would have been split into uneven, unequal parts.

Jaymo: I feel like Mike's getting hung up on the math.

Mike: No, it's quite-

RiRi: No, I think he's talking about geometry, actually.

Mike: Yeah,

Jaymo: that's a type of math.

Mike: Well, no, they show how it breaks up and it breaks up into even pieces. It's just not an equilateral triangle like it now is

RiRi: You're right Mike has a point. He's right. It's not quite even but the Triforce is split into three basically

Jaymo: This is also the guy who complained that there's not enough streets in Street Fighter.

RiRi: I love you Mike

Mike: The other thing I'm going to ask about is. So the manual on this has like twelve pages worth of- It's like twelve pages of just like before you get through the story of the backstory on this.

Jaymo: Wait, wait, twelve pages of backstory for Zelda II?

Mike: Yeah.

RiRi: There's no real story in the game. You got to put it somewhere

Jaymo: What's in those twelve pages?

RiRi: the actual whole story.

Mike: So it's this stuff about how. So, first of all, does Zelda actually show up in the first game?

Jaymo: Yeah, at the end

Mike: Okay.

RiRi: You're saving her. You spend the whole game saving.

Jaymo: Oh, and hilariously, RiRi, I got all the way to the end of the game. Have you seen when you save her at the end of the first game?

RiRi: Yes. Yeah.

Jaymo: So I got to Ganon, I got all the way through Death Mountain, and I didn't know I had to get the Silver Arrow.

RiRi: Yep. You have to get Silvers. Silvers have to beat Ganon.

Jaymo: Right. Well, I didn't know that; you knew that because you've been playing these games.

RiRi: Link to the Past. Because I've played a lot of Link to the Past. And so I'm like, oh, yeah, silvers, I need those.

Jaymo: So I get to Gannon, I'm wailing on him for, like, ten minutes. I'm like, what the- he's-. No way he has as much life. I look it up on ZeldaDungeon.net. You need the Silver arrow. God. So I gotta restart the thing, do the whole thing over again, get the Silver arrow this time on the way to him. I finally bring him down. He explodes. And I get to Zelda, and there's flame blocking her. And I almost had a conniption. I was like, what the heck? But you just have to attack the flame well. Okay. But I was scared to because I had the long range sword and I didn't want to go through the flame and blast her in the face. Okay. So anyway, Mike I'm sorry.

RiRi: No, that's a cute experience honestly, that's

Jaymo: I was like, oh, my God. One more thing. Are you serious? She's right there. So, Mike twelve pages. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off.

Mike: The parts that lead me to ask about this. So it's this whole bit of, like, where the symbol shows up on the back of Link's hand.

Jaymo: Right, we saw on the cover

Mike: Yeah. And this is that somewhat cliche like symbol means something of great significance.

RiRi: Yeah.

Jaymo: Do you guys have a birthmark? I have one. It's under my sideburn, and it means I'm a man of great power. Go ahead.

RiRi: Oh, congratulations.

Jaymo: Thank you. That was really too personal to ask. I'm sorry.

Mike: That shows up. And then Princess Zelda's nurse maid sees this. Weirdly, it calls this a birthmark, but it shows up as he approaches his 16th birthday, and that is not what birthmark means.

Jaymo: Right. The birth part is kind of important,

Mike: although

RiRi: generally,

Mike: having- Sticking with concepts doesn't hold up here, because that then leads her to taking him to a door called the door that does not open, which she then opens. And in there, they introduce, like, it's described as, let's see. “On an altar in the middle of the room lay a beautiful woman”, and she's like, this is Princess Zelda.

Jaymo: This is Zelda saying this.

RiRi: No, the nursemaid.

Jaymo: Oh, the nurse.

Mike: Zelda's nursemaid.

Jaymo: Nursemaid. Whatever the heck that is.

Mike: And then there's a whole lot of backstory on this and three Triforces and stuff, but one of the things it mentions is, like, some stuff happened in the past to a Zelda, and now every female child is named Zelda. And I-

RiRi: It's a tradition in, uh, the Hyrule monarchy, basically.

Mike: So this does show up in other things

RiRi: Yes, yes, mhm, mhm

Jaymo: Oh, in that family, all girls will be called Zelda. Uh, I thought you meant every woman in Hyrule I was like, that's so confusing.

RiRi: No, the princesses are all named Zelda.

Jaymo: Gotcha.

Mike: Okay. I was curious if that actually is a thing that-

RiRi: It is. And it comes into play in a fun way in Tears of the Kingdom. Jay. So, watch out for that,

Jaymo: Oo, spoiler. Oh, it's going to be her mom or something.

RiRi: I didn't spoil anything.

Jaymo: No, you teased. That was actually perfect. That was a tease. That was not a spoil.

Mike: Yeah. And really it's not a spoiler, because it's established here. It's just everything.

RiRi: It's very established in other iterations.

Jaymo: And the Link, Link is a different dude several times. Right, RiRi?

RiRi: It can be because of, um, the adult timeline, there is no more hero of time, right? So he doesn't have to be Link. So yeah, that's kosher, I guess, in the Hyrule Historia canon, if you want to call it that.

Jaymo: So, Mike was there anything else from that prelude that you want to mention?

Mike: I don't think so, because this threw in extra Triforces, and the heck happened there and then, by the way, everyone's named Zelda in this family, which also seemed weird, but apparently they've stuck with that.

RiRi: I think it can be rationalized in that you always want to be the princess of destiny. So just in case this one is the princess of destiny, we're going to name her Zelda, because she has to be named Zelda. You know what I mean?

Jaymo: Oh, because the prophecy mentions Zelda?

RiRi: You're forcing a prophecy. You know what I mean? Like self-actualizing.

Jaymo: That's super fascinating.

RiRi: I think that's kind of the idea of it. In any case,

Jaymo: It's like that show Flash Forward, where the whole world saw, like, two years in the future, and they only saw 15 seconds of it, and so now they all start doing things to make that come true.

RiRi: Yeah, mhm mhm.

Jaymo: Oh. Uh. Man, I haven't thought about flash forward in a while. You want to hear some trivia? Oh, go ahead, Mike

Mike: Actually, I will mention, because I think these are two of the points that I have down that I think came out of going through the manual, or one point at least, which is, I think, at some point, something in this, and I think it's in the manual, refers to the term landmap. And I honestly don't know what the heck else they felt someone could read that as they needed to specify landmap and not just map

Jaymo: I mean, you know, our friend Larry called a menu a food map. So maybe there's different types of maps, Mike

RiRi: We can probably put that one down to a rough translation.

Jaymo: There's a star map. You study star maps.

RiRi: Good point, Jay.

Jaymo: Booom

RiRi: What you got to say about that?

Jaymo: What kind of map is this?

Mike: I think that's done contextually.

RiRi: Oh, okay. All right.

Jaymo: Oh, come on. You got to give it to me. Come on.

RiRi: That was good, though.

Jaymo: Thank you. Okay, Zelda II trivia?

Mike: All right.

Jaymo: Mike, we good? Okay.

Mike: Yeah.

Jaymo: So I thought this was interesting. Did you guys remember that when the 3DS was first released, it really struggled in sales, and Nintendo had sort of a panic moment because they kind of put all their eggs into this basket, and it was not selling? Does that ring a bell to you at all?

RiRi: I definitely remember that time because I was one of those people. I was like, I'm just going to stick to my regular DS. The 3D is a gimmick. Was very much the vibe at the time.

Jaymo: Yeah. So it launched in March of 2011 at, uh, $250. But it was struggling in sales so much that Nintendo had this panic thing, and they cut the price by $80 in August of that same year. So that's a 32% price drop. Five months after release,

RiRi: Nintendo, who will sell Breath of the Wild to this day, a six year old game, for full retail price, $60.

Jaymo: I'm surprised they haven't upped it to 70, honestly.

RiRi: Same Nintendo.

Jaymo: So Nintendo did this because, um, they thought, if we can get the price point to well below 200, we're going to start moving the new handheld units. But they knew that people would be pretty salty about it, so they created the Nintendo 3DS ambassador program, where anyone who had bought a Nintendo 3DS and turned it on and registered it with Nintendo, uh, online were given 20 free games as, like, a thank you for buying it much more expensively than everybody else did.

Mike: But if this is a console ship, where's the ambassador?

Jaymo: Wait, what are you making a joke? I don't get the joke

RiRi: He is, he's making, like, a consular joke. That's a Mike joke. It has layers.

Jaymo: So I've been listening. I think I'm our biggest fan. I've listened to most of our episodes several times, and I'm still getting jokes that Mike like, slipped in. Like, wait a minute...

RiRi: Uh huh, he'll do that, and he won't let you know. Just see if you get it. It's a Mike joke. Legendary in my household, Mike jokes are.

Jaymo: Um, RiRi, I assume you're-

RiRi: Oh lord, oh

Jaymo: I just showed her a picture of the Phillips- so Phillips was one of the few games to make Nintendo brand. Yeah, the CD-i. They made two Zelda games that are pretty infamous for their really cringy animated cutscenes. But also for the actual gameplay being not very good. These are the only other Zelda side scrolling games, not counting Zelda II. And it's because of their poor reception that Zelda 3, which would have been a true sequel to Link's adventure, was ultimately scrapped. RiRi, I know you're going to celebrate that because you don't seem to- I think you're not gonna like Zelda II

RiRi: the real Zelda 3, Link to the Past, is a *mwah* chef's kiss gem of a game. Okay.

Mike: Yeah. I think you may be proud that because you were streaming that one recently.

RiRi: I happened to be streaming a randomizer of it when Jaymo was first coming to my stream, I think.

Jaymo: Yeah, it was the bowsette mod.

RiRi: Yeah, bowsette sprite.

Mike: My wife was showing me a cross stitch thing. That was a Zelda thing. And I went, oh, no, that's not one of the ones we played, I think. And then I had to quickly check, and I recognized that it's the world map that you were playing.

RiRi: I have very fond feelings. Um, I call it Zelda 3 just because Link to the Past is kind of a mouthful.

Jaymo: Yeah.

RiRi: But, yeah, Z3.

Jaymo: And the last bit of trivia I have for Zelda II, which I think that's such a weird thing that that's, like, on the actual box just says Zelda II

RiRi: Well, at the time, right? At the time that was- how are people going to know it's a continuation? And, like, you said it was already out in Japan, right? They had a different sort of franchise going in the beginning, and what they ended up doing became greater than the sum of its parts, I feel like. Because of the redirect that this game caused, which is getting into my argument of how I feel about this game.

Jaymo: I just think it's funny, though, because I feel like the Legend of Zelda comes up as sort of, like, this gatekeepy thing that I've seen a lot of nerd men do.

RiRi: I hate that. I can't stand it.

Jaymo: So have you ever had this RiRi? My friend Sarah was telling me that she was at a staff meeting, and this was, like, this year, so it was like 2023. And she's like, "oh, yeah, I like games". And some guy's like, "oh, really? You're a gamer?" And she's like, "yeah, I play, like, Legend of Zelda", and apparently the guy was like "And the protagonist's name is?" expecting her to say zelda. You know what I mean?

RiRi: I'm sorry. I just threw it in my mouth a little bit.

Jaymo: So I just think it's really funny that, I feel like there's a certain type of gamer who recoils at this being called just Zelda and then on the box is just Zelda. I don't know. I'm overthinking it.

RiRi: No, no, I- I think- I think what that guy is doing is so disingenuous, and that's not fair. And it's so natural to just call it Zelda. I mean, we've been doing it this whole podcast. We've been calling it the Zelda franchise. Zelda game.

Jaymo: Yeah. Right.

RiRi: So I think that's a disservice to fandom if you're playing that kind of nonsense.

Jaymo: Why do you think that gamers do that more often? Because I feel, like-

RiRi: Because it wasn't mainstream. It was misaligned, and gamers were the nerds and the outcasts. And so now it's "Oh, it's popular now, but I was the original. I'm hardcore." Um, and I think that's so

Jaymo: Want the cred?

RiRi: That's just not the human experience. The human experience is so much more about community and gathering over something common. And I think there had to be a way to delineate of, oh, I like these games, and I like these games, and that makes us different kinds of gamers. And it's just like, it just delineates like that.

Mike: There's always going to be people who take the "sprayed in the eyes because that's what happened to me", kind of vibe

RiRi: Absolutely. Especially these games. Being harder, like, unequivocally harder, generates this hazing mentality. Right?

Jaymo: Was that an Aqua Teen reference, Mike? Riri. That was a very good point. I thought it was very well said.

RiRi: Thanks I've been, I've been a girl in the gaming space my whole life, so I'm familiar with the topic

Jaymo: Speaking of things that are not well said, did you guys encounter Error?

Mike: Yeah.

RiRi: Yeah, yes.

Jaymo: Do you guys know the story behind this guy?

RiRi: No, I have no idea what the story is. I assumed it was poor translation.

Jaymo: So, so a lot of people think it's a glitch. Right?

Mike: I figured it can't be a glitch, because there's no way on Earth this game's programmed well enough that it has, like, error tracking

Jaymo: Okay, listen Mike, we are not at the Joy pros and Joy cons yet, okay?

Mike: No, no, no, that's-

Jaymo: You can't come out swinging.

Mike: That's just, like, all sorts of things. Like, you have to intentionally design that kind of stuff.

RiRi: This is a programming thing, is what you're getting into

Mike: Yeah, from a programming standpoint, that's a lot of work for no point.

Jaymo: So the thought was that there was supposed to be some sort of name here, and for some reason, the name didn't display properly or whatever, right? So this was actually an intentional inside joke from the developers.

RiRi: Oh, see that also really tracks

Jaymo: Yeah. And I discovered this before I even looked it up, because later in the game, I got to this other guy in a different town who says, "Ask Error of Ruto about the palace". I'm like, holy hell, the guy's name is actually Error. Because I was like, there's no way that happened twice. Right?

RiRi: Yeah.

Jaymo: So then I go back and talk to the guy, and then the game continues as normal, but then later, you meet Bagu. You guys know Bagu?

RiRi: I'm going to spoiler alert my run.

Jaymo: Do it.

RiRi: No, I don't know Bagu.

Jaymo: Okay. Bagu is another guy, and his name was supposed to be Bug. So in Japan, there were two characters, Era and Bagu, which means error and Bug. And it was supposed to be just this cute joke the programmers put in, but then when they translate it to the north American release, Era got successfully translated to Error, but Bagu was accidentally left as Bagu and not translated to Bug. So what that means is that Error is not a mistake, but Bagu is the bug.

RiRi: Oh, wow.

Jaymo: I never said the trivia would be worth knowing, but there you go. And then the last thing is I want to mention is that probably the most modified part of this game is the "game over" screen. So I thought, it's pretty cool when you die and you lose your last life, you get this return of Ganon screen and it's this very imposing silhouete of Ganon. And that was added for the north American release. But then when the game was rereleased in the 2000s for the DS console, they removed the strobe effect that would happen. Normally when Link dies, you see his silhouette and the background like strobes dramatically. But after a, uh, Pokemon episode featured flashing lights in 1997, it triggered mass seizures in Japan and-

Mike: Porygon's super effective

RiRi: To my knowledge. Did that really happen? I've always took that as like urban legend.

Jaymo: Oh, I don't know, I mean I-

RiRi: Did the seizures really happen? Because I don't know.

Jaymo: So the seizures, Mike, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is pretty well documented to the point that the evening news in Japan was reporting on the story.

RiRi: And they removed it from the north American version of the cartoon, right? Because of the seizures happened. But I, as a kid on the playground, right? It's like, oh, that didn't really happen.

Jaymo: So I guess, uh, my research led me to believe it did really happen because I was reading about how the seizure happened. And so then they were reporting on it on the evening news that day in Japan, and they showed the footage of what caused the seizure and they caused more seizures.

RiRi: Oh, no way.

Jaymo: So someone in the comments reach out if you can confirm or deny this story, because I'd love to know if in fact, I've been bamboozled. But in my research today, it seemed pretty legit.

Mike: Yeah, I think, I think the scale of it is not as large as most people think of it as.

Jaymo: Oh yeah, right. Yeah. It wasn't like thousands of kids or whatever.

Mike: It's not like the Simpsons when they go to Japan are watching like, tv and Homer walks in and the entire family is having a seizure, and he just looks at, shrugs, and then just lies down and starts twitching. It wasn't just like everybody that watched it. It was just if you were susceptible.

RiRi: So the Wikipedia does say it more closely resembled mass hysteria than a seizure. Uh, but

Jaymo: interesting.

RiRi: A study following 130 patients over three years after the event found most had no further seizures. So possibly some did, but probably not to the extent that was reported.

Mike: Yeah,

Jaymo: Right. I mean, I feel like once it's like more than one person, then it's going to become a story. Have you guys watched the footage? Have you guys watched the Pokemon seizure footage with the flashing?

RiRi: I have, yeah,

Mike: I think so.

RiRi: It doesn't seem that dramatic. I feel like I've seen worse.

Jaymo: All three of us are just like, well, this could be a really traumatic thing about to do myself. But let's see what happens.

Mike: I think it's more... I have messed around with strobes enough. I built a strobe light. I'm fine

RiRi: I've never had a negative reaction to flashing lights, ever.

Jaymo: Mike you're like that cold grizzled, like, hard rock guy who's done so many drugs that nothing affects him anymore,

RiRi: Especially with lasers and lights in particularly. That's kind of a thing.

Jaymo: So let me get into the Joy pros versus the joy cons of this game,

Mike: Since this is the first time that I think on one of the sides, really, Ganon has shown up, that death screen is the entire reason I have any idea what Ganon looks like because

Jaymo: you saw this?

Mike: Yeah, it's like, I saw that a lot- I- no way. I was seeing the end of a game. I was going to ask if this comes up. So first of all, just based off this. So what, is he a pig?

RiRi: He's very pig like. Yes. Ganondorf is the human. Ganon is the, uh, empowered through the Triforce extraversion. He's like a big moblin kind of what he looks like.

Mike: Because it then leads me to wonder whether or not the name is just coincidental or if it's actually meant to

RiRi: Sounds like the French word for pig, right?

Mike: I was going to say gammon, which I think is also just used in English.

RiRi: Yeah. I don't know the origins of the name.

Jaymo: Yeah, I didn't find my research.

Mike: All right.

RiRi: That's a good question, though. Maybe somebody will let us know. We've been wrong on the Internet, somebody's going to tell us.

Jaymo: Oh, sure. If anybody listens,

Mike: that's our goal, to be wrong enough that people need to listen to us.

RiRi: Yeah, that's how you get viewers is you're wrong enough that it spreads on X.

Jaymo: I I made a post to the Hearthstone subreddit many years ago about my cat. My cat used to get. So I would play Hearthstone. You guys know what that is?

RiRi: The Blizzard uh, like, card game, right?

Jaymo: Yeah. So I would just play it on my phone, and while I was playing, I would just sort of rub my cat's ear, right? Because he was just sitting on my lap. And it got to the point where every time I would turn my phone sideways, he would get all excited and trot across the room and get in my lap because he knew that ear rubs were coming. And so I made just a little Reddit post about that, and I posted it, and it got like a thousand likes or something. It kind of had its own little viral moment. And then I knew I had arrived because people were like were shitposting me and making fun of my cat, uh, with their own posts. And I was like, "hey, I'm being mocked by strangers. We made it."

RiRi: I can't wait for somebody to tell me I've said something wrong because I have said a lot of Zelda stuff that I have not done very thorough research on.

Jaymo: You're trying to piss people off,

RiRi: right? I can't wait till somebody comes to be like, wrong.

Jaymo: Well, you know, I'm going to say it right now, because you were making some implications that Zelda II is a bad game. And I want to make the case.

RiRi: I'm going to amend your statement, bad Zelda game.

Jaymo: Okay. So my joy pros. All right.

RiRi: All right.

Jaymo: I think that this game, I feel like it's known as the side scrolling Zelda game. Would you agree?

RiRi: Yeah. Because nobody's talking about the CD-i games other than to quote, "excuse me, princess".

Jaymo: Yeah, the meme.

RiRi: Um, I mean, I have that as a sound alert on my stream.

Jaymo: Do you really? That's amazing.

RiRi: I really do.

Jaymo: Um, I think though, calling Zelda II: the Adventure of Link just the side scrolling Zelda game, I think it's an oversimplification. And I think that there's so many things that this game added that we have kind of come to expect from RPGs. So first of all, you have the towns that are full of NPCs and a lot of them have unique dialogue and their own little side quests where it's like, "oh, I've misplaced my mirror, can you help me find it?" Or "oh, my kid went missing in this forest" or whatever. And then if you complete those tasks, then you get extra items or hearts or what have you. Well, I guess not extra hearts because that's earned differently in this game. Did you guys like the towns in Zelda II? The little villagers?

RiRi: I think you inadvertently stated the crux of one of my issues. RPG. It feels like an RPG, not an action adventure game. It really does hit like that, especially in the towns and in the almost random combat special screens. More like a Final Fantasy game.

Jaymo: Yeah. So what RiRi is referring to is that there is an overworld from the top down where you're exploring and little silhouettes of monsters will appear on the map and start to pursue you. And if they touch you, then you go into side scrolling mode and have to do battle.

RiRi: Mhm.

Jaymo: And like you said, like final Fantasy.

RiRi: It’s very different gameplay. And so there's an old adage, right?

Jaymo: Okay.

RiRi: Disappointment is from unmet expectations. Like, ultimately, disappointment is unmet expectations. And so if you're coming at this from a more modern Zelda player and you try to go play Zelda II, I think disappointment is almost guaranteed because it's not a very Zelda game. And I talked about that through line of this, that and the other. It's very Zelda. This does not feel Zelda.

Jaymo: Okay.

RiRi: Not at least to me. And I think that's probably the general consensus. It's not very talked about a lot. It's pretty forgotten. It did not do well. I think. A friend of mine referred to it as a franchise killer. Had it been released now, the struggle to come back from that would have been enormous to release a game. We know Zelda as a strong franchise now, but this is partially because of the recovery from this game. The turn, they pivoted. Right? Pivot. There's also a reason when we talk about retro Zelda, we often refer to it as top down Zelda. We love "top down Zelda hits different". That's something that we say. And, like, side scrolling Zelda, it don't hit the same, man. Don't hit the same.

Jaymo: So wait do you have- do you- so if we're ranking the Zeldas, side scrolling, top down, and 3D I guess would be the last one?

RiRi: Yeah. I mean, that's generally how people talk about them. Yeah.

Jaymo: So do you have a preference? Obviously, side scrolling is your least favorite. Do you prefer top down or 3D?

RiRi: That's tough. I find different things to enjoy about both. For example, a modern top down would be like Minish Cap. I really enjoyed that game. And the remake of Link's Awakening, where they completely redid the art style with that tilt shift. It's top down Zelda with a very modern, streamlined game design, and it's fantastic. So I think I probably play more 3D Zelda, at least on my streams. But there's something about top down that it hits, man.

Jaymo: Yeah. I think it's like, I find 3D games just require so much more attention and more of my faculties, and top down Zelda is, like a great game to lay back in bed before you go to sleep and just kind of slide around a few screens and just.

RiRi: Oh, that's funny. I consider top down Zelda is generally more challenging.

Jaymo: Well, I mean, if you're abusing the rewind feature, like I do

RiRi: That's fair. That's fair.

Jaymo: Yeah, So I like that I get experience points from killing monsters, and I can use those experience points how I want.

RiRi: So weird. Yeah, it's like an RPG.

Jaymo: Is, uh, there any other Zelda game that has experience like this?

Mike: Can I take an issue with what you just said, which was,

Jaymo: yeah,

Mike: I like that I get experience points from monsters.

Jaymo: Okay.

Mike: You do not get experience from a whole bunch of the things that you kill in this. It's only some of them, and I have no idea how that's determined. And it's utterly frustrating that some things would and some things would not.

Jaymo: So from what I can tell, and RiRi correct me if I'm wrong, but there's certain enemies in Zelda II that respawn endlessly. Like, there's this one part of a dungeon where you're going through and these little coyote faced guys are jumping out and running at you with these knives. And the ones that respawn endlessly don't give you experience points. All the enemies that are not endless respawns do give you experience points.

Mike: Yeah, but if you have one of the wild encounters, the little blobby things will continue to spawn forever and those will give you experience points. If you were to just enter one of those and then just grind for a while, like someone might do at two XP per kill. Um, I don't know who would-

Jaymo: Is that what you did?

Mike: Oh, yeah. As soon as I discovered I had something, I'm like, I'm going to do this now for at least a little bit. But then other things, including, I think because sometimes you'd have the encounter where two of them were like the low level and one was the higher level where the higher level would not. Like the higher level thing that would show up, which is like a guy with a spear that wouldn't give XP but the blob thing showing up would.

RiRi: So there are some enemies that steal your XP.

Jaymo: What?

RiRi: Yeah. yes.

Jaymo: Uh, how do they do that?

RiRi: Instead of damaging him, they take the current unused points towards the next level.

Jaymo: Oh, no.

RiRi: And so I'm wondering if that's what Mike encountered.

Mike: no, I wasn't killing anything- or nothing was killing me yet. Like, I was killing them. Some of them would give XP and some of them would not.

RiRi: I feel like maybe if you were hitting the same blob and you haven't left a screen, it's that regeneration maybe.

Mike: Oh, no, the blobs would. That's what was so frustrating. I had already very clearly farmed those blobs.

RiRi: Okay,

Jaymo: well, also, I don't remember any enemy except for the coyote face guys not giving me XP. And I remember you see them kind of a lot, but they never give me any xp. I wonder if that's just an enemy type that just that one type doesn't give you any. And it's just, um.

RiRi: I feel like sometimes I would look up and I'd be like, I didn't get any XP from that. And I wouldn't necessarily know why, but it was one of those things that I just "Eh, whatever", I don't know.

Jaymo: Someone in the comments let us know.

RiRi: Yeah. But I also would attribute it to, like, oh, maybe I misremembered, I don't know.

Mike: No, I was distinctly paying attention to this at some point. I'm like, this is entirely inconsistent and really makes this mechanic frustrating.

Jaymo: That's so funny. So I'm right now, in fact, the bottom screenshot is right where I am in the game. I'm grinding to get enough hearts to get the reflect spell where I can bounce enemy projectiles off of me. I need it to defeat one of these bosses. So I'm just currently grinding by just doing the random encounters. And I'm just, I'm not finding it as frustrating as you are, Mike. It's weird, it's like this weird through line where it seems like. I don't want to say that's a glitch, but it's just this frustrating part of the game design that I'm just not encountering. Kind of like in golden axe when you would get stuck with an enemy off screen. So what I'm trying to say is, I think you have bad karma and you deserve this.

RiRi: Wow.

Jaymo: Yeah, no, I'm mostly kidding.

Mike: It's worse when you say mostly kidding.

Jaymo: Yeah, I like the combat in this game. So apparently Zelda II, and RiRi this will make you feel better, is one of those Mario 2 situations where when it first started development, it was not a Zelda game.

RiRi: Can you not tell? It is so different. Whereas Mario 2, I think, in a lot of ways, was better received and enhanced the franchise. Not the case in Zelda II, generally.

Jaymo: So this, um, Shigeru Miyamoto had this concept for a combat game in which you would have to defend high versus low attacks. And so that became the mechanic where if Link is standing, he will deflect a high attack, and if there's a low attack, Link has to crouch. And I feel like the enemy encounters in this game are kind of better than the first game because an enemy gets up in your face and you're swinging your sword and it's pinging off of their shield, and they're swinging their sword and it's pinging off of your shield, and you're both kind of crouching and moving your shield up and down, almost like a game of pong where you're trying to get through each other's defenses, and it was genuinely thrilling at points. Is that not the experience you guys had with the combat?

Mike: I think if losing any amount of health wasn't such a giant penalty, it wouldn't have been as annoying, but it carries such a limitation, and was so hard to recover.

Jaymo: which is, once again, your sword is no longer a ranged weapon as soon as you get hit once.

Mike: Yeah.

RiRi: This is the crux of my opinion on this game, right? I don't think it's a bad game. It's a very different game, and I think this is something that I talk about sometimes. You got to know your genres. You got to know what kind of books and what kind of movie and tv shows you're going to enjoy. And the same thing is absolutely true of games and this being labeled as a Zelda game, but the experience being very different, in the combat in particular, combat being so important in Zelda, it's fairly critical. And puzzle solving. Those are your two big things I just- I struggle. I struggle with the execution on the combat. I think Mike and I had very similar experiences. It was just rough, and it was rough in a way, it was a challenge that is not fun for me. I'm not a big fan. Not a big fan. If I'm playing an old school RPG, I want it turn based.

Mike: I will say when this does get to the dungeons, this does feel very Zelda.

RiRi: Uh, yeah.

Mike: In that I have no freaking idea where I need to be going, and it feels giant and confusing.

RiRi: That's also very typical of the old school Zeldas, though, and so that feels more at home. It's not the same game, you know what I mean?

Mike: That's where I stopped because I just couldn't find where I needed to get through, was like the first dungeon. I get in there, I'm like, I can't find where I need to be.

Jaymo: Yeah. I did think, though, that the game path is more straightforward than the first game, in that you go to a town, and there's usually somebody in the town who will tell you where to go on the overworld map to find what they call palaces, which are basically the dungeons. And then once you're in the palace, basically your goal is to find the keys, and the keys will unlock the doors that will lead you to the boss, kill the boss, and then outside of the boss is another town, and you sort of just repeat.

RiRi: That's very typical Zelda.

Mike: Uh, how'd you kill the first boss? I'm presuming you did.

Jaymo: Yeah. I got pretty far in this game. I think I'm on, like, palace five.

Mike: How'd you kill the first boss?

Jaymo: Which is the first boss again?

RiRi: Let me go back.

Jaymo: I don't have a screenshot of it.

RiRi: I'm going to bring up ZeldaDungeon

Jaymo: Once again, while Riri is looking that up for us- thank you by the way- ZeldaDungeon.net. Once again, that's my go to. They have walkthroughs of every Zelda game. And what they do for this game, you can see on the screen, is that they will show you on the overworld where these random items or random little events are. So, like, in this one, at the end of this maze, there's a random pixel where if you go there, you will fall down a pit and save a little kid. And then that's needed to get a spell or whatever

RiRi: Ok, the first one is Parapa Palace.

Jaymo: Parapa Palace. Okay, what does it look like here? So, Mike what do you remember about it? Just not knowing how to beat it?

Mike: Yeah, I remember hitting him a lot and nothing seeming to do anything

Jaymo: and then just getting frustrated and then stopping eventually?

Mike: Yeah. Because I'm like,

Jaymo: Oh, the first boss. He's the horsehead guy.

RiRi: Oh, yeah. I just scrolled onto him.

Jaymo: Yeah, well, you just-

RiRi: There's not much to him, right?

Jaymo: Yeah. You just jump attack him.

RiRi: Yeah.

Mike: What do you mean-

Jaymo: Oh, I know what was happening. I think. Did you catch on, Mike that tougher enemies will not take any damage from the projectile and only take damage from the Link's actual physical sword.

Mike: There's no way on earth I still had projectile attacks at that point.

RiRi: But you have to jump and hit his head.

Jaymo: Yeah.

Mike: What do you mean by- okay, so that's what you mean by jump attack.

RiRi: Mhm. his head is his only weak spot, so that's the only.

Jaymo: The easiest way to do it would be to- and I don't know if you can get it at that point in the game, but you eventually get this attack where you stick your sword underneath yourself like Kid Chameleon style, Mike and you kind of pogo off of enemies. But I didn't have it at that point yet. I was just jumping and hitting the attack button right before I landed to kind of just get that strike right at a little snout level.

Mike: Okay. I was just hitting him with the sword, and not knowing that, I did not know that this had shifted to only certain areas could be damaged.

Jaymo: Yeah.

RiRi: Hitting his body is armored,

Jaymo: Right. Well, I kind of feel like, in defense of the game, I feel like the body is very visibly armored, whereas the head is not.

RiRi: It's still cryptic.

Jaymo: Sure. Absolutely. And like I said, I'm right now grinding to get a spell that you need to defeat the Wizzrobe boss, I guess there's some giant ghost that shoots fire at you.

RiRi: They're like the magic user bosses.

Jaymo: Yeah,

RiRi: Yeah, the worst.

Jaymo: So yeah, I mean... Anything else to say about the game?

RiRi: I like that you're getting crystals at the end of palaces. That is very Link to the Past.

Jaymo: Okay.

RiRi: And that having continued through the world, I also feel like it's a reasonable number of dungeons overall. Like, it's not so many that you're lost. It is a more linear game in that way. But I feel like that took some of the fun out because the fun of exploration was part of the charm of the original, and I feel like they scaled it down too far back, right? It was so much to be overwhelming in the first one, but in this one it's very linear and it felt like a slog and I just didn't have fun with it, man. And I realized part of the problem is it's just not the game for me and that's okay. But as a Zelda game. Mm-mm.

Jaymo: I think you're absolutely right, though. It is not fun to explore in Zelda II. The overworld map is just, I don't know, just kind of not visually appealing enough. And then you have the random enemy encounters that kind of appear more often than you'd like. So you're kind of constantly stressed about just exploring and taking your time. But I'm like- so Metroidvania might be like my favorite genre.

RiRi: Oh, so this- This very much hits for you then

Jaymo: Oh yeah, Yeah, I think I'll go back and play this whole thing. In fact, RiRi, I told you I was going to draw you for the avatar for this episode. The reason I didn't is because I spent too long trying to beat this game for the podcast.

RiRi: Get me the next Zelda one, you know

Jaymo: So then. So Joy Cons then, let me kind of join you guys on the hate bandwagon for a second. Mike mentioned it. I hate that you only have your projectile attack at full health. The projectile attack doesn't even go all the way across the screen. And when you lose it, Link's actual sword, I feel like it's attacking like an inch or two in front of him. You have to get so close to your enemy to actually hit them that, uh, I think you kind of feel underpowered in not a very fun way.

RiRi: You can't attack without taking damage for a lot of enemies.

Jaymo: Yeah.

Mike: And it feels like they set up some of those encounters such that you can't really preserve having full health. The encounters in the desert with the weird giant things that apparently you have to hit the top of, but I can't jump high enough to do that.

Jaymo: Oh, yeah. The giant worms you got to get them as they're coming out of the sand.

RiRi: I call them twinmold because that's the boss in Majora's Mask. I don't know what they're really called.

Jaymo: Yeah.

Mike: Like, those were something where it's like, I hit those and, like. So apparently my only option is to run into them, and then while I'm in that brief, I'm injured, like, immunity. Run past them to get out of this because I couldn't hit the top of them. And I'm like, well, this is a problem.

Jaymo: And I do find it funny the number of times that a random encounter would happen and I just stepped back off the screen.

RiRi: That was nice that you could just run away.

Jaymo: Yeah.

Mike: I would end up with them on either side of me.

RiRi: Yeah. Then you're a little stuck.

Jaymo: And as much as I feel your pain, I got to say, when I eventually upgraded to get the pogo attack, which is where you jump and put the sword underneath you, and now you're bouncing around on top of enemies like Scrooge McDuck in the old Ducktales game. Oh, it was so satisfying. And these enemies that used to be a pain in my butt were just know no problem at all. And I love that moment in a Metroidvania game. I love that moment in an rpg when you're like, "I remember you. You used to kick my ass, and now I get to mop the floor with you". It's like that fantasy of going back and facing your bully from elementary school, but as an adult, beating up the actual. I shouldn't say this. I'm a public school teacher. Let's end this train of thought right here.

RiRi: Well, you can connect it to another Zelda game, right? Like in Breath of the Wild. When you first encounter a guardian, they scare the pants off of you. And then when you learn to parry, you're like, "oh, I can take these down. No problem". And you actually haven't gotten any stronger. You just learned a skill. And I do like that.

Jaymo: Yeah. And I felt like I had that moment more in this game. There was, like, these helmet head guys, these big armored enemies, and I just organically discovered jumping attack them to knock their helmet off, and I was like, "well, that was cool. Look at me getting better". Any other joy cons for this game before we go on to rate the two of them?

Mike: I'm going to say this is minor, but this feels like a weird level of lack of thought, which is the way the manual explains the- this is a combination of the naming that shows up in the game and the way the manual explains the magic that Link learns.

Jaymo: Okay.

Mike: Having a magic called spell, which is described as the magic to cast eerie spells, feels so incredibly lazy.

Jaymo: Yeah.

Mike: And then this is just weird, because I think this is the first one you get, if not one you start with, is shield.

Jaymo: Yes. It lowers the amount of damage that's done to you when you're hit.

Mike: The manual, like, has images to go with all eight magic things. The image for shield is a tunic, and I have no idea how nobody was like, hey, should shield be an image of a shield?

Jaymo: Well, but I get the logic they're saying because the shield is a distinct part on the character. It's the little green line that deflects enemies. This is shielding the tunic.

RiRi: Like a magic shield, right? Like magic armor, right? I will say, too, in a Link to the Past, the armor upgrades are tunics for.

Jaymo: And same thing in the first game we played today, the Legend of Zelda. You get different color tunics.

RiRi: Mhm.

Jaymo: To increase your defense

Mike: If it was armor, then I'd be fine

Jaymo: Ok, you just don't want the word shield.

Mike: It's the pairing. Everything else. Jump is a picture of him jumping. Fire is a picture of fire. Fairy is a picture of a fairy- everything else is, like, exactly what you expect. I guess maybe thunder can be argued that technically that's the sound and the images of the lightning, but that's level.

RiRi: Of, uh, pedantic, Mike

Jaymo: Mike has the weirdest bones to pick with these games

Mike: No, I'm not complaining. I'm saying, like, for any of the other ones, you would have to get very pedantic to be like, why is this the combo being used?

Jaymo: Yeah,

Mike: that one just stuck out. Just like, that's an odd choice to it. And then I thought it was weird with the way that when you're invited in, you're given specific instructions in the manual about how you're basically-

Jaymo: Let's. Let's give some context first. So what Mike's referring to is that joke I was making earlier where it's like, is Link having sex in order to be healed? Because in this game, in each town, there's women. Some of them are, like, kind of youngish looking women, and some of them are like, older looking women, but they both invite you inside or like, please, let me help you come inside. And then Link goes in, but the camera doesn't follow him. And then his magic or his health will get raised. So, Mike continue.

Mike: And so what I find weird about that is you have to talk to them outside their houses, and then they'll invite you in, and you basically have to follow them in. And the manual is specific about how you have to get your timing right so that you get in there before the door closes. And there's something weird about that dynamic of just, like, it's somewhere between

Jaymo: Don't miss your chance.

Mike: Either that this is weirdly secretive or almost like you're trying to follow people into their houses. This gets vaguely breaking and entering in vibe, where I'm just like, this should just be, they've opened the door, come on in on your own time. Not this weird, like, quick time event to get in through a doorway.

RiRi: That's exactly how you describe it.

Jaymo: Well, Mike, you remember dating, right? Sometimes you have a narrow window,

RiRi: One door opens, and one door opens. That's all you got.

Jaymo: Door closes.

RiRi: The door closes.

Jaymo: In this case, it's the same door. I don't know, though. I found that little, like, first time it happened, she says, this woman's like, please follow me inside. And I was like, oh, it's kind of intimate. So, Mike let me tell you something you don't know about the manual, but you might have read. I, um, guess there's a point where it's describing the items, and it says that there's these little bags that have experience points. Right? You remember those?

RiRi: The treasure bags or whatever.

Jaymo: Treasure bags. I guess the manual says, be careful. Sometimes enemies will jump out of a treasure bag. Do you remember reading that, Mike?

Mike: I don't remember that. Like, I read through it. I just don't remember.

Jaymo: The manual says, "look out. Some of them have monsters". Apparently none of them have monsters. They forgot.

RiRi: I was going to say I never encountered that. That must be really rare. Oh it just doesn't happen.

Jaymo: Nobody has ever encountered that. The manual is a liar.

RiRi: Fair enough.

Jaymo: Okay, so let's then go on to our rankings. We are going to-

Mike: I have one final question about.

Jaymo: Let's not go on to our rankings yet. Go, Mike

Mike: Because I was going to ask, because I only made it as far as that first palace • • and there's two. So I visited two towns.

Jaymo: Yes.

Mike: One of them is Ruto

RiRi: Yep.

Jaymo: Yes. Which becomes a character, right RiRi?

RiRi: Mike is referring to my dog, who is named Ruto

Jaymo: Oh, but isn't Ruto a character in other games?

RiRi: In Ocarina of Time Ruto is the water sage. You meet her as a child. She's a Zora princess. She's another princess. And you have to get these sacred spiritual stone from her. The Zora sapphire. Well, it's also their engagement ring, basically. And so you get engaged to Ruto in Ocarina of Time, theoretically. And they continue to play with that through other Zeldas like Mipha, giving Link his enchanted Zora armor in Breath of the Wild. And that's their symbol for engagement. And so Vah Ruta is the guardian in Breath of the Wild, too, that the Zoras have. So there's- there's a lot of references to Ruto farther on. I was very surprised to see it in this game, but it has no reference to the Zora or water, really. It's just a name that they use. So, yeah, my dog is named Ruto.

Mike: Okay.

Jaymo: And it's funny because in the description of the SP version of this game, it says “It's a secret to everybody. Start this version of Zelda II: The adventure of Link with your attack, magic, and life all max out at level eight. And then quiz time. Do you know which town names in this game appear as key characters in a different game within the Legend of Zelda series?”

RiRi: Ruto is definitely one of them.

Jaymo: Yeah.

Mike: All right. I was curious about that because I saw that, and I'm like, this can't be coincidence, but this also

RiRi: No, it's not.

Mike: can't be what the dog's name after

RiRi: it was like a random name they threw out and they just kept it. I don't think, Ruto doesn't have significance until later on, but I did find it funny.

Jaymo: But Mike had this weird moment where it's like she named her dog after this weird town in this game she doesn't even like.

RiRi: Fair enough. Good point. I'll take that L.

Jaymo: All right. Anything else, Mike?

Mike: That's all I had. I wanted to bring that up.

RiRi: I knew when it came up on the screenshot you were going to bring up my dog. I knew it.

Mike: Yeah. And I figured that Jeremy would enjoy the dog tangent.

Jaymo: Absolutely. So at the end of each game, as we work our way through all 200 plus games in the Nintendo Switch online retro catalog, we like to declare each game a NintenDO or a NintenDON'T. So let's start off with the original, uh, Legend of Zelda. And RiRi, I think you should go first. You're our guest.

RiRi: Okay. This is 100% A NintenDO for me. It is so fun. It has so much classic charm to it. It's difficult, um, and it can feel unfair. But with the save states and the rewind feature, worth playing at least a little bit. You don't have to beat it. Don't feel like you need to go all the way through to really understand it. But I think it is fun to see where it started.

Jaymo: Yeah. Would you say? Because I don't know how many other versions of this game, it's been released time and time again, virtual console and different collections and whatnot. But I think this game is better with the ability to rewind. I think it's just inherently less frustrating. You kind of just enjoy the games. The game does well without getting kind of disheartened.

RiRi: Yeah. Because the challenge and the difficulty of it is, like Mike said, it's almost impossible. You got to play community style, right. And things like that. So use a walkthrough, use a guide, use the save states and the rewind feature and enjoy it for what you can. There's no reason to not at least start it up and give it a try, in my opinion.

Jaymo: Yeah, I think it's a NintenDO for me, I think this game, it deserves your attention and your admiration. But I think that if you go in raw, if you go in without rewinding and with no walkthrough, you're going to wonder why this series got so popular. It's that frustrating in its raw form, but if you're willing to kind of work with it I just- I think it's absolutely a NintenDO. What about you, Mike?

Mike: Well, I went into this with no walkthrough and no resources, and I have no idea why this is that popular based off of that. So what I'm going to say is, without any resources, this is a NintenDON'T.

RiRi: Even with the manual, and the manual is usually key in these older games. It's not enough.

Mike: No, and that's why I'm putting it with the. Under that context. Good God, no.

RiRi: I don't blame you.

Mike: And trying it with may go much better, but what I did was clearly the wrong way.

Jaymo: Well, and I appreciate you kind of taking it on the chin, though, because I think one of my favorite parts about this podcast is really seeing how we interact with games differently. And I guess kids just were tougher back in the 80s or

RiRi: less to do. They didn't have smartphones and, apps.

Jaymo: They didn't have game pass. They just had to get good at this game because it's the only game you're getting.

RiRi: Maybe their one game, too, for a long time.

Jaymo: Yeah. So how about Legend of Zelda- excuse me, I said it wrong- Zelda II, the Adventure of Link. I think it's a NintenDO. I think play it with a guide. Don't feel ashamed if you're generously rewinding just to keep your sword powered up. And look, it's a hot take, but I think with all the things that this game adds and the combat itself being, to me, so much more fun. I think it's the superior game over the original Legend of Zelda.

RiRi: You alone on that one.

Jaymo: I can't be the only one.

RiRi: There are other people that I know that do enjoy this. They just also admit, as a Zelda title, not a very strong entry.

Jaymo: I- I think just if you're judging them both as games, I think that Zelda II, it has the NPCs, it has the experience levels, it has the combat that I think is more responsive. I think just judging them both as games, this is a better game. Judging them both as Zelda games. The first one's better.

RiRi: Yeah. Mike what do you think?

Jaymo: Yes. Well, hold on with RiRi, though. So what's your ranking? Because you're like, a NintenDON'T, if you want

RiRi: I'm a NintenDON'T. It's not worth it as a Zelda player. Here's the thing. If- I stream Zelda games, I'm a fan of Zelda. This offered me nothing. This did not add to the enjoyment of the franchise. And I fully admit that in part of my opinion I say, you know, it's not a good Zelda game, in my opinion. Doesn't mean it's not a good game. I just also recognize that the game that it is, is not my genre, is not the style of game, the type of game that I tend to enjoy. So just for me, my opinion, NintenDON'T.

Jaymo: Well, that makes it a tie. So then we have to go to the listeners, right, Mike? Because everyone's voted, right? It's a tie.

RiRi: Wait,

Mike: I haven't voted yet. I see what you're trying to do here.

Jaymo: I tried to stop you.

Mike: He's going for some real stop the count stuff here.

Jaymo: Oh, God, there it is. Political every episode.

Mike: I think as far as some of the gameplay design features, I actually found some of that a bit more appealing. But I feel like I hit more points that I really couldn't get around in this.

Jaymo: Yeah.

RiRi: Mhm.

Mike: So I feel like to me, this ends up a NintenDON'T for that.

Jaymo: I knew it. I'm so crest-fallen.

Mike: And those felt more roadblocky than just cluelessness.

RiRi: I played this one a lot less than the original, for what it's worth, too. I didn't beat either of them, but this one I gave an hour to, and I was like, "I'm done. I can't."

Jaymo: That's so funny. I'm like, I can't wait to get back to it. I'm going to play it tonight.

RiRi: You y'know what? That's fair. That's fine. That's your opinion.

Jaymo: All Right, well, so then that is two NintenDOs. one NintenDON'T for the original Legend of Zelda, and two NintenDON'Ts, One NintenDO for Zelda II: the Adventure of Link. So that is going to wrap it up for us. RiRi, it was so much fun having you on. Thank you for being here.

RiRi: Thank you for inviting me. I've had a blast. I will talk far too long about Zelda if given the chance, so thank you for letting me talk your ears off today.

Jaymo: No, but I was very impressed, not only at your Zelda knowledge, but just, you just got a lot of know how and a lot of really cool experience to share just about life in general, so really hope we have you back.

RiRi: This is the first time my video game endeavors have ever earned me any accolades in my whole life.

Jaymo: Oh, stop. You have triple digits on your followers. People like your stuff. So let's remind our listeners then, um, they can follow your Zelda streams on Twitch at RiRi Yells R-I-R-I Yells and Mike, we're going to put links in the description below, Right?

Mike: Yep.

RiRi: And I'll play a variety of games, but you will see Zelda, and you will see retro games fairly frequently.

Jaymo: Excellent.

Mike: And hopefully we can have you back as our Zelda consultant in the future.

RiRi: Oh, man. If you're going to do another two and it's Link to the Past and Link's Awakening. Oh, those are so good.

Jaymo: We're doing them all. I mean, at this point, almost every Zelda Game up until the N64 era and then even past it because we've got the Gameboy Advanced games now. So we just got Minish Cap.

RiRi: Oh so good

Jaymo: Season of Ages. There's a lot of Zelda to get through, so we could definitely use you again.

RiRi: The Seasons games have lots to be discussed as well, so, yeah, I hope you guys have me back for further Zelda games.

Jaymo: Absolutely will.

RiRi: Looking Forward to giving this one a listen when it comes out.

Jaymo: And our listeners, don't forget to like, follow and subscribe if you think we've deserved it. You guys can hit us up on theoldswitcharoo.com to actually leave us a voicemail. And Mike, do you want to plug the Discord? Are we at that point yet?

Mike: Yeah, we do have a Discord that I think the easiest way to get to it is from theoldswitcharoo.com.

Jaymo: Yeah,

Mike: We've got a link to the Discord up there, link to the YouTube channel, if you're listening to this and want to check out the videos.

RiRi: And I'm in there.

Jaymo: Yeah. And you- don't feel like you need to have anything particular to contribute, we'd just love to have you.

Mike: I don't have anything particular to contribute, and I'm on this.

Jaymo: It's never stopped Mike. Well, so I hope you guys all join us next time when Mike and I take you out to the ball game. We are going to be playing Baseball on the NES and Baseball Simulator 1000 on the Super Nintendo. So thanks everyone for listening. This has been the Old Switch-a-Roo where we've been Gaming Retro with Mike and Jaymo.

Mike: I've been Mike

Jaymo: and I've been Jaymo. Game on everyone.

Music: I've got some trivia that you'll probably already know, although

RiRi: Oh no

Jaymo: I worked really hard. I worked really hard to find some things that I thought you might not be aware of.

RiRi: I might not. Yeah, honestly, if it's about these two games specifically, chances are I'm going to do really poorly. I don't know if you know this...

Jaymo: Oh sorry-

RiRi: I'm a little bit younger than Mike

Jaymo: I didn't mean to scare you by trivia. I mean I'm going to tell you some trivia.

RiRi: Oh, great. I love that. That's way better.

Jaymo: Yeah, I keep wording that wrong and freaking people out.

RiRi: No, it's Like you're a teacher. I brought you a quiz.