Episode 6: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Megavitamins

[DR. Mario theme] 
JAYMO: Alright, welcome back to The Old Switch-a-roo, where we're talking gaming retro with Mike and Jaymo. 
MIKE: I'm Mike. 
JAYMO: And I'm Jaymo.  Thank you for joining us today on our quest to play through  every retro game in the Nintendo Switch Online catalog.  There's over 200 of them, so we've kind of bunched them up into episodes for your  listening pleasure. And before we get started, Mike, look, I know my titles have been a bit  touch-and-go so far, my episode titles, right?  Some might even say they're a bad idea because it's going to make these  harder for people to find the content. But I'm excited to show you this one. Are you ready? 
MIKE: All right. 
JAYMO: Welcome to episode six: How I learned to stop worrying and love the mega vitamins,  where we are discussing Dr. Mario and Dr. Mario 64. Tell me you get the reference, Mike. 
MIKE: Yeah, I mean, it should be Dr. Mario or: how I learned to stop worrying and love the mega vitamins. 
JAYMO: I know that. And you're-  Why did you have to empty my bucket on this? I knew that, okay?  And the thought was that the title- that title is too long somehow, those extra three words.  But also, I just liked that Dr. Mario was on the screen. You know what, Mike?  There's no pleasing- We are discussing two puzzle games. We're going to start off with Dr. Mario  on the NES released in 1990. And before I dive in, Mike, I have two questions about your past,  if you don't mind.
MIKE: All right. 
JAYMO: First of all, is there a doctor in the house? 
MIKE: There is. The doctor is in.
JAYMO: Yes. Okay. What are you a doctor of? 
MIKE: Technically, i says physics, although everything I do is astronomy related. 
JAYMO: Oh, well, I mean, isn't that- but Mike isn't technically all of astronomy physics? 
JAYMO: That's the physics.
MIKE: That's kind of why they get a way  around with it. They actually created an astrophysics  doctorate while I was there, which had a different course load. And so it was like, hey,  so we've gotten approved to have a PhD in astrophysics. And it was like,  do we get to take that? No. 
JAYMO: So do people call you doctor like when you're walking around the college offices? Do they  like doctor? Like is that a thing?
MIKE: Not really because everybody else is too. 
JAYMO: Ah, okay. There's not like that one Wallowitz in the office where it's like doctor, doctor,  mister.
MIKE: No, although -
JAYMO: they seem to be right.
MIKE: Yeah, that is very much a real dynamic, though. 
JAYMO: Wow, okay, so doctors, you doctors get a little huffy about your titles.  And also, am I crazy? I swear I have a memory of you beating Dr. Mario  at Miles Chen's house. You know I'm talking about?
MIKE: No, I don't. I don't recall that. 
JAYMO: Okay, so we- Mike and I were on the high school newspaper together, the Saugus Scroll,  and we would lay out the newspaper, sometimes late into the night, so we would have like these  layout parties, and our coworker- our classmate Miles hosted one time, and he had an NES set up.  And I swear you were the one who beat Dr. Mario, maybe I'm thinking of somebody else.  Have you ever beaten Dr. Mario?
MIKE: Not that I recall doing, but I also don't really  have memories of playing this particularly. Like I had, I know that I have, but it just,  this never sticks with me.
JAYMO: Interesting, okay. Well, let me go on to specifics of Dr. Mario here,  released in 1990, its published by Nintendo. And it was directed by Gunpei Yokoi, he showed up in  one of our previous episodes, The Father of the Game Boy and The D-Pads, so a huge innovator in the  gaming space back in the 90s, and I guess 80s and 70s, it was designed by Takahiro Harada, who also  was credited on working on the Metroid series, Metroid Fusion and Metroid Zero Mission, both of which  we hopefully get to play, one of those is still not yet added to the service, but I think it's coming.  And he was also a supervisor on the Sin and Punishment series. Mike, have you heard anything about Sin  and Punishment in terms of 64 games and not just the concept?
MIKE: Uh, then no.
JAYMO: Okay, so Sin and Punishment is  a really cool series that didn't make its way to the States for a very, very long time, and it's  a really cinematic action game on the Nintendo 64, and it was really innovative for its time.  And the other thing I wanted to mention about Dr. Mario is that it was, had its music composed by  Hirokazu Tanaka, who made also probably the most iconic puzzle soundtrack of all time. Mike, if I ask  you to guess which puzzle game soundtrack was the most iconic, what would you say?
MIKE: I would say Tetris. 
JAYMO: Exactly, yeah, and he did the Tetris theme as well. And the Dr. Mario theme is no slouch, like I  loved the music in this game. So the fact that the same man made the Dr. Mario and the Tetris theme,  like how prolific, like what a show off.
MIKE: Did he have anything to do with Columns? 
JAYMO: Columns also has a good soundtrack, but not in my research, no. He did a lot of compositions for  Nintendo music, but it didn't seem like he jumped over to Sega. I don't know how common that was  back in the day.
MIKE: I just wasn't sure if he was just like the puzzle music guy. 
JAYMO: Yeah, but I mean, he definitely, if there was one guy who would be called that, I think it would be  Hirokazu Tanaka. So let me read the description of Dr. Mario from the Nintendo Switch Online menu.  It says, "Feeling under the weather? Well, Dr. Mario has the cure for you. Help him fight bodies  of nasty viruses with multi-colored pills, eliminating those germs faster than they can multiply.  Rotate the pills as they drop and gain a higher score by aligning multiples of the same color.  Clear all of the viruses to move on to the next round. But watch out as the pills start dropping at  a faster rate. Not enough of a challenge? Try competing against a buddy and prove that you're just  what the doctor prescribed." So, you know, it's pretty good in that it's communicating what the game is,  a drop puzzler like Tetris or, as Mike mentioned, Columns. This is a whole genre of games of shapes  falling from the top of the screen and you need to rotate them and position them in specific places  before they reach the bottom of the screen. It is a weird description though. Mike, did any of that  description strike you was kind of odd?
MIKE: I don't think so.
JAYMO: Okay, so what I thought was weird is that the,  you know, it says, "You got to kill these germs fast and they can multiply." And that's the central  gameplay mechanic is that you are trying to create rows of four shapes of the same color in a row.  And once you get four in a row, they'll all be eliminated. So hopefully one of the shapes is a virus  because your goal is to clear all the viruses from the screen. But it says, you have to eliminate those  germs faster than they can multiply. Do the germs multiply in the game? I can't think of it. It's  the whole time I was ever playing and germs started showing up on the screen. > MIKE: I did not ever have them  do that either.
JAYMO: Right, but wouldn't that be a cool gameplay mechanic? Like, you know, especially if  it's spread and kind of filled more of the screen? I'm no game developer, but I feel like that's a  pretty good idea. And I'm also sort of tickled by the description because you've read the manuals.  For those of you who are not aware of our show, I'm a retro gamer, but Mike is gaming retro. And what  that means is that I'm going to access all the modern conveniences of playing retro games today,  such as save states and rewind features. Mike is not going to do so, but he will be using the manual.  So he's really getting the authentic experience if you were a kid playing this in 1990.  And so Mike, the description here, it describes Dr. Mario's main weapon, the central mechanic of the game is  pills, but the manual calls them something else, right?
MIKE: I think in there, it talks about them as vitamins. 
JAYMO: Yeah, megavitamins, which I didn't know a megavitamin was a thing. Did you know megavitamins are real?  Like, that's a medical term.
MIKE: Not that kind of doctor. 
JAYMO: Right, physics doctor. So apparently megavitamin is sort of like the, what do they call those,  those vitamin C tablets you drop in your drinks, airborne tablets, where it's a vitamin, but it's  such an insane amount of the vitamin that it's supposed to like kind of shock your system.  So I guess that's actually a real term. So I was amused by that. So let's get into the trivia section  for Dr. Mario, which we're calling knowledge is Nintendo power. So this was the, sorry, we were  going to talk about the cover first. Can I talk about the cover Mike and then we'll get into the  trivia?
MIKE: Yeah.
JAYMO: Okay, sorry. Got my notes out of order. So going over the box art for this game.  This is a classic cover to me, like instantly recognizable. I love that it uses the pills as the  background for the image because it's showing the gameplay, but it's also very aesthetically pleasing.  I did find it strange though that although Dr. Mario is instantly recognizable, Mike, what's your  thoughts on the opinions or what's your opinion on the appearance of the viruses when you look at  the box art here for the original Nintendo release?
MIKE: So the red is some sort of devil. 
JAYMO: It's got two horns.
MIKE: The blue is a rabbit
JAYMO: I guess because the buck teeth and the bigger ears. Oh, okay.  Didn't even put that together
MIKE: And the yellow may be related to Shrek?
JAYMO: He's very the antennae or I guess those are  just Shrek's ears based on the earwax he pulls out of them. Yeah, it's it's very, very Shrekish.  The designs for the viruses don't match what they look like in the game and they, to me,  resemble a lot more of Boglins. Mike, did you have a Boglin when you were a kid? I'm showing you  an image of one here.
MIKE: Yeah, and I still don't know what those are.
JAYMO: Boglins were these really  cool hand puppets that were sold in the 80s. They'd been referenced on Rick and Morty and it was  partly designed by Jim Henson if you can't tell by looking at it. And it was really cool because  yeah, it's a traditional hand puppet, but it also came with little arms dangling from the puppet,  so kind of creating more of a sense of the creature it had a tail out the back as well. But  its big innovation was that you could control the eyeballs by sticking your fingers in these little  special slots in the puppet. You could make the eyes look different directions. And it's based on,  you know, a very kind of cheap version of how Jim Henson really made creations like the Muppets or  the creatures you see in Labyrinth. And, you know, I feel like this was a common design when you're  creating a goblin or a creature kind of giving them big eyebrows and kind of a big mouth. But I just  thought it was sort of interesting, you know, that it didn't really match the design of the game.  I do like the doctor being turned into Rx. Mike, do you know why Rx is the abbreviation for prescription. It's  actually pretty interesting.
MIKE: I do not offhand know why.
JAYMO: So I'm probably not going to say this the way  they said it back then, but in ancient Latin, Rx was how you would write recipe and early medicines,  you know, were just combinations of herb and ground together so they would be called recipes.  And so that's why Rx is the abbreviation for prescription. What do you think of the cover  of Dr. Mario? Any thoughts?
MIKE: I mean, I think using the pills as a background does seem to give a  pretty good, intuitive idea of what kind of game this is.
JAYMO: Right.
MIKE: I do find myself oddly distracted  by Mario in this?
JAYMO: Really? I thought he, I mean, he doesn't look quite how he does today is that  because its got uncanny valley thing for you? He looks just a little off.
MIKE: I was going to say more, The two things  I noticed, number one is that the way he holds a thermometer like it's a pen or something, or like,  he's got his hand fully wrapped around it in just a weird way.
JAYMO: That's true. Yeah, yeah, it's, I think you're right. And in his other hand is a clipboard. So it's almost like he thinks he has a pen and someone  pulled a hilarious prank on him or something. You know what? Now that you said it, I can't unsee it. 
MIKE: Yeah. Yeah. It kind of reminds me of the the joke of a proctologist looking for the that starts to  write and is holding a thermometer.
JAYMO: Keep it classy Mike. Keep it classy. I don't know who's going to hear  this, but that is well done. The Japanese cover or, oh-
MIKE: The other thing I was going to say- and actually,  this is true on both covers.
JAYMO: Yeah, Japanese and North American release
MIKE: is is Mario's mustache and  eyebrows always a different color from his hair or is that just a here thing because he has brown  hair and like a black mustache and eyebrows
JAYMO: You just, and I think you just uncovered a huge  conspiracy. Does Mario die his hair? Well, this isn't this does happen sometimes. Some people have facial  hair that doesn't quite match their head hair, right? I swear, I've seen that naturally.
MIKE: Yeah,  like that can happen. It's just an odd design choice to me.
JAYMO: Yeah, it's true, but I mean, imagine  Mario with a brown mustache it just seems sort of wrong and Mario, modern Mario, no, he's always  been this way. Modern Mario games. He doesn't have black hair, right? I don't think so. I'm  going to look this up and this is going to be a Berenstain, Berenstein, bear situation kind of thing,  Mike I'm afraid to look up a picture of Mario right now. Yeah, he very clearly has even in the  modern designs, brown hair and a black mustache. Huh, I never occurred to be either. So the Japanese cover  here for the Famicom system, you know, it's similar. I think it's less appealing from a layout  perspective. You know, it's now granted part of that is that the box shapes were different in Japan,  but I don't know, it just seems sort of not as postery unless you're talking about like a medical  poster. The Japanese cover, you know, still has Mario, still has the viruses, although interestingly,  drawn to look how they look in the game, which I sort of prefer. I really love the design of the  viruses. Hey, physics doctor, doctor, doctor, Mike here. What is that in the background? What,  what structure are we looking at? There's some kind of scientific, that's like an atomic structure,  right? We got nitrogen, nitrogen, hydrogen.
MIKE: Yeah, it's some sort of compounds, although I'm not sure  what.
JAYMO: Okay, I have a coworker who has a daughter who's a chemist and maybe I'll send her a picture.  We'll see. I thought it was funny in the Japanese cover, you know, the viruses are sort of,  let's say, the size of a nickel, but it says multiplied 10 times, which means that those are pretty big.  Shouldn't they've been like, zoomed in a hundred times? See what I'm talking about Mike at the bottom,  left of the camera lens, focusing times 10 doesn't seem like enough zoom if you're looking at a virus  and seeing its face.
MIKE: Yeah, but I think without thinking too much about it, I suppose, or first of all,  it just kind of gives the idea of we're looking through a microscope right off the bat. Although I  will also point out they clearly have to be the same size as half a pill, so these are large viruses. 
JAYMO: Well, I don't think the pill is part of the diagram, I think that's just an aesthetic thing.
MIKE: Yeah,  but I mean, when it gets into the game, they have to be large.
JAYMO: Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah,  yeah, that's a good point actually, because if he's throwing the pills in there, the mega vitamins,  if you will, every virus is the size of half a pill. Those are very big viruses.
MIKE: Although,  I will say it is actually when you think about the fact that, well
JAYMO: or very small pills.
MIKE: Yeah, well,  for a game where you're fighting viruses, trying to fight off viruses, first of all, there's just the  entire, we're fighting out viruses by just throwing lots of pills at you, which is, it seems  questionable, but
JAYMO: yeah, I was wondering
MIKE: the odd this thing about this as a concept to me.
JAYMO Yeah, what's that? 
MIKE: Is all of this is not taking place in any representation of a human body. It's taking place in a pill bottle. 
JAYMO: Yeah, it's interesting. So we all kind of think of this game, and in fact, in the story mode of the  sequel, you know, it very much implies that these mega vitamins are used to cure people, but this is  a clinical test. If you look at the screen, in fact, I can kind of go to a screenshot, actually in all  iterations of the game, it's always pills being thrown into a jar. So it sort of implies like  this is sort of a research lab situation, which makes versus mode incredibly interesting,  because that's like are you competing prescription commercial prescription developers? Are you big  pharma trying to screw over your competitors and sabotage their efforts to develop a cure for something?  There's a whole meta story here that I think is, first of all, questionable in an era where,  you know, opioid overdose is one of the most common forms of death in America. Also, there's a huge  swath of this country that thinks that people are over vaccinated. So I was like, I'm just curious if  this game, you know, is- would be considered controversial if certain people got their eyes on it. 
MIKE: I do like the idea. I do like to get the idea of vaccinated version of Dr. Mario where you start the game.  And there's just no viruses.
JAYMO: Yep, yep. You just instantly win. 
MIKE: And I actually wonder if the reason it is a pill bottle is because they didn't want a game where it's  an outline of a character that you just keep throwing pills into the mouth of.
JAYMO: Yeah, because when you  think about the design of it, you could very easily imply that this is like, you know, someone's body  cavity and the top of the jar could just be a mouth, but yeah, you know, even back when this game  was developed, that probably wouldn't have been seen as good iconography for your game. Mike, would  you like to hear some trivia on the first Dr. Mario?
MIKE: Yes. Lets here some trivia?
JAYMO: So here is  finally at long last our section knowledge is Nintendo power. So this game is the first game we've  gotten to talk about for our podcast where in the Nintendo Switch Online menu, you get multiple versions.  You can select the commercial release or you can boot up SP. And that stands for special. There's  a special edition of a lot of games on the Nintendo Switch, most of them in the NES catalog, but it's  a brilliant concept that I wish Nintendo had kept, you know, going with in where you boot up the game  and there's already a game in progress. There's a save file for you. And this would be super helpful  in something like Golden Eye where you could just unlock all of the multiplayer features for your  player, you know, lasers and DK mode and all the things that we remember loving as kids, but don't  necessarily want to spend 20 plus hours re-unlocking. And, you know, unfortunately they haven't done that  recently. I think Nintendo kind of forgot about this feature. But did you boot up the special edition  of Dr. Mario? Did you give it a try, Mike?
MIKE: No, I think I forgot to re-enable the ability to see those. 
JAYMO: Ah, you filter them out. Yeah, I mean, they're pretty forgettable unless, you know, you have it on your mind  like I do. So the Dr. Mario special edition you can boot up, it starts the game at the end of level 20  on high speed. And if you beat the game or beat level 20 on high speed, there is a cutscene. And it shows  the viruses standing on top of a tree and it gets picked up by a spaceship. Now, Mike, hopefully you  didn't see it when I accidentally showed images earlier. Does this spaceship in the screenshot I'm  showing? Does it look familiar to you? You still there?
MIKE: Yeah, I'm thinking
JAYMO: okay. You got to make thinking noises.  This is a podcast.
MIKE: See, I know that if I pause, I can cut those those gaps.
JAYMO: Oh, sorry, sorry, Dr.  go ahead. That is spaceship. What are your thoughts on the appearance of this spaceship? Because it's  it's pretty interesting, I think.
MIKE: There's an element of it that gives me sort of the vibe of like the close  encounters ship.
MIKE: Boom. Yep. That's that's I think that's absolutely what this is. It is also a little  similar to the ship from ET, but when you look at the posters for close encounters of the third kind,  it's it's almost the same visual. It's just instead of the tree, you have like the mesa from that  movie because it was like desert setting,
MIKE: it's devil's tower
JAYMO: devil's there you go. Yeah, where is  that?
MIKE: Wyoming.
JAYMO: Wyoming. I see. There you go. Dr. right there. So, but this implies the viruses  are aliens, right? It's like an alien virus. That's my read on it. I think it'd be weird if these aliens  just were abducting viruses like that could be potentially really dark. They're culling  Earth for, you know, the worst diseases. So, Dr. Mario Online Rx was released for the Wii in 2008  as a downloadable title. Do you have this one? Ever try Dr. Mario Online?
MIKE: No.
JAYMO: It was, you know,  what it sounded like, you could play Dr. Mario against other people using, you know, Nintendo's  internet connection. You could also play with your friends just as wiimotes, but my favorite part of  Dr. Mario Online was the ability to play with the balance board. Remember the Wii balance board?  You ever see one out in the wild? They were actually one of the top selling video game peripherals  ever created, but it was used to like for yoga and meditation. You could even use as like a scale,  but you could control Dr. Mario Online using without your hands. You would stand on the balance  board and you would lean left and right to move the falling pills left or right. You would rotate the  pill by squatting, and if you squatted more on the left hand side, it would rotate to the left. If you  squatted with more weight on the right hand side, the pill would rotate clockwise and you would make it  drop faster by standing on your tippy toes. Mike, what do you think of that?
MIKE: That is way too much work.  I don't want to have to be doing that much exercise when I'm trying to get rid of viruses. 
JAYMO: Yeah, you don't want to get healthier that way.
JAYMO: Also
MIKE: I have my limits. 
JAYMO: Yeah, everyone does. Dr. Mario was sort of palette swapped into Dr. Luigi. For the year of Luigi,  it was this weird attempt to make Luigi a thing during the years of the Wii U. Dr. Luigi,  very similar in gameplay, except some of the pills would fall in L shapes, which I don't know,  man, like Luigi, you're not cute. I'm not down for that. Easily the most interesting trivia I  found about Dr. Mario was Dr. Mario BS version. And no, I'm not kidding. That's actually what it's called, Dr.  Mario BS version. It was a graphically enhanced port of Dr. Mario that was downloadable on the  Super Nintendo via a peripheral called the Satellaview and it was released in April 1995. Mike,  ever hear the Satellaview?
MIKE: I have not.
JAYMO: Yeah, did you ever have any... So back when Mike and I were  growing up, we saw the rise of the internet. We were both born in the 80s and most of our childhood  memories are from the 90s, but we remember America Online. We remember pre-social media.  There was a few years there where there was these things you could buy that would technically connect  to the internet. There was also one for the Sega Genesis. Did you ever have any of these early  online gaming things for your cartridge-based 16-bit system? 
MIKE: No, really for not really having a console and then even when I did not having internet for quite a while. 
JAYMO: Yeah, it was interesting. So this was available to gamers in Japan and Europe using a special cartridge  called the BSX. I'm probably not going to say this properly, but it's just great. So I got to make  it attempt at it. The game was called "Sore wa Namae o Nusumareta Machi no Monogatari" or "the town  whose name was stolen". Get a load of that. What a title. It was one of the very first games with  online functionality, provided you connected your Super Nintendo to your satellite radio.  The game bears a striking resemblance to Earthbound and it allowed players to explore a strange  deserted town. But by entering the buildings of said ghost town, you could use special apps like  calculators, read the day's news, and most interestingly you could download full games during the  Super Famicom hour. Every night on St. Giga Radio, a DJ would inform listeners of what they could  download as well as running trivia contests and popularity polls the service was discontinued in 2000.  Mike, any thoughts on tuning in on the radio to download games onto your Super Nintendo? 
MIKE: It really makes me redefine pirate radio as a concept. 
JAYMO: Yeah, so it never kind of occurred to me that, you know, with satellite radios, you could send  limited data, you know, that this, I had no idea this existed. But, you know, pretty cool.  And, you know, it's kind of a forgotten little wrinkle of Nintendo's history.  Well, so let's go into what we like and dislike about Dr. Mario or a section that we like to call  Joy-Pros and Joy-Cons. I did not like Dr. Mario growing up. I, in fact, I would even say I  disliked the game. And so when it was time to film this episode, I was kind of, you know, rolling my  eyes and expecting to just grin and bear it. I fell in love with Dr. Mario. What's your opinion on  this puzzle game?
MIKE: Interestingly, I, I'm gonna say I have competence at this game.
JAYMO: Yeah, you're good. 
MIKE: But at the same time, I don't think I ever was having fun with this game.
JAYMO: Oh no, I swear this is one of  your favorites. That's so funny. And maybe that's also why I thought you beat it. I must be thinking  of somebody else. So what is not fun about Dr. Mario in your mind?
MIKE: I think if I had to  hone in on it is because this is just using the at least four in a row or at least four  vertically. And it has a weird sort of pacing, especially when you're playing against  something so that you have pieces that are dropping in-
JAYMO: Yeah so what Mike's referring to is that when  you have an opponent, the way that you are playing against each other is that when you clear blocks,  it will send sabotage blocks to your opponent, which are just these little individual pieces of color  that sometimes can, you can lay up into a combo. It'll just actually be kind of mana from heaven.  But most of the time it's gonna fall and interrupt your plan and your layout.
MIKE: Yeah, so I think it  just feels like this never reaches a satisfying level of combos for me in a way that this starts to get  fun in the way that I think of
JAYMO: other puzzle games doing?
MIKE: of other puzzle games doing because the  strict only the rows or only the columns element just seems to slow it down.
JAYMO: So you're saying like you  think the game had it allowed diagonals perhaps just to get a few more combinations popping off. It  might have been a better game in your mind.
MIKE: I think if it was that or
JAYMO: oh it would be like a square 
MIKE: yeah if you could form a square or if they could move faster or it's something about that  and I can't really pin down what it is it just it and so as I got to higher levels  it was just get it almost gets tedious in a sense where it's like I can do I can do this  but it just doesn't quite feel fun.
JAYMO: Doesn't hit that sweet spot and you can look for that in a puzzle game.  I thought I thought the concept was really easy to understand but I thought it was engaging in that  unlike in other puzzle games I found myself in a lot of situations where like okay I see a match  at the bottom of the screen and I do have a narrow way that I can maneuver this one pill you know  through kind of tunnels and chasms that I've created on the screen to get that perfect match. I  thought that was stressful in sort of a fun way. the music, you got to give me the music, Mike. Like  you enjoy the way this game sounds right? Like iconic.
MIKE: Yeah and I actually I don't recall  knowing that that is what this is from but it immediately reminds me of something like 20 years  ago there was like a high school choir that had done an acapella selection of a video game songs in  general and like they act out like Tetris and stuff.
JAYMO: Cool
MIKE: and this music was in there and it was one  that so I recognize it from that.
JAYMO: Yeah not the game and then you played the game you're like oh this is  this is from that acapella video.
MIKE: Yeah it kind of filled in a oh that's where that one that one is 
JAYMO: right. So another thing I like about this game though is it's brutally challenging I mean there's  no denying that but since pills have only three possible colors there's red, blue and yellow which  that's- is that the primary colors? Yeah that's the primary colors isn't it? It is
MIKE: yes
JAYMO: yeah so  you know you can have a pill that's red blue or blue yellow or just yellow yellow and since there's  only three colors on the screen you rarely find yourself with a useless piece there's almost always  a good place to put the pill somewhere. The question is can you find it for it's too late? And that's  eliminated.
MIKE: I will say I did find it odd that the manual does explain all six color combinations  like it is a all the possibilities and it's like there is not so many or such a weird  system here that this needed an explanation.
JAYMO: Yeah for sure and I like the viruses I thought you know  the viruses being your antagonists, the pieces you're trying to clear but as we talked about when  we were looking at the cover it the viruses have personality like one of them is kind of the goofy  one and one is like the angry one and they have little horns and little smirks and I thought it  gave this a level of personality that like Tetris for example is sort of lacking and I found you  know seeing the cute little viruses dancing in the corner of the screen and every time you clear one  of their color they get like knocked over and when you clear all of them they just get eliminated  it gave this idea of like okay I have a target I have a visible antagonist even though it's just  happening in a jar I felt like there was more story to what I was doing that I'm used to in puzzle  games you see what I'm saying?
MIKE: I mean I do the only thing I noticed that they would do is disappear  when I eliminated them because I guess it's a thing that because it's happening with the game  I'm totally ignoring it so like I'm not looking I wasn't looking over at that 
JAYMO: yeah it's purely visual there's no advantage to looking at the animations of the virus in the  bottom corner it's just and and Nintendo actually does this kind of a lot especially in these  old retro games they'll fill the screen with you know the title of the game and just little aesthetic  things but it's it's it's really smart it's making the image condensed enough that it can graphically  handle quick movements. It made-
MIKE: It is interesting note that here Mario does have a mustache that  matches his hair
JAYMO: Yes I was waiting for you to notice that I was like he's gonna see it eventually. In game  Mario has a brown hair and a brown mustache and I argue that doesn't look like Mario now that looks  like some other guy someone else imitating the doctor so um you know oh by the way I thought you  might find this interesting according to the Nintendo comic system which I didn't know this existed  it seemed similar to Sonic the comic where back in the 90s they would make comic versions of some  of their most popular games so the viruses are the red one is fever the blue one is chill and the  yellow one is called weird and fever has fire powers chill commands the cold and weird can forcibly  transform people into different shapes and animals
MIKE: I think they really missed a missed a step there  for that to be malaria
JAYMO: what do you mean
MIKE: uh yellow fever
JAYMO: oh wow well you maybe they didn't want to  make it an actual virus I don't know. So you know things I don't like about Dr. Mario  a single mistake is punishing in this game because the way since you are matching pills your pills are  your primary way of clearing blocks it's so much harder to clear blocks horizontally rather than  vertically and so that means that to undo an error you're probably gonna have to stack pills on  top of your mistake in order to clear it but you lose the game when your pills stock us uh stack  to the top of the screen so fixing your errors actively inches you closer to death or in other words  things almost always get worse before they get better so I found this game stressful did you  do you agree
MIKE: yeah I think that's part part of it is you know a small misplaced misplacement,  a pill not rotating quite as fast there's very it's very hard to sort of recover from it I think  that's probably also made a bit worse because the pills will drop if there's nothing below them  but the viruses stay put and so that kind of starts you up so far up
JAYMO: yeah
MIKE: that that really  does mean you can end up in a situation where you have stuff built up on one side where you can't  really connect anything to it because you have to build
JAYMO: yeah
MIKE: you know two thirds the way up the screen  to then try to clear that
JAYMO: you can die so much faster than you know other puzzle games that I actually  thought this started as an arcade game I was like that's an easy quarter muncher you know you  put your quarter and you could be you could lose in 30 seconds easy uh but actually you know the arcade  version came later I I also was really annoyed- Mike, you like Tetris right you're a Tetris boy? 
MIKE: yeah
JAYMO: so if I ask if if I ask you to explain a t-spin are you familiar with t-spinning
MIKE: um I'm not 
JAYMO: I bet you do this you just don't know the term for it t-spinning is a term in Tetris where you know  you have a t-shape and the t-shape has touched down but the game hasn't locked it in place yet  so even though it's touched the bottom of the screen or it's touched another block  you can still rotate it as it's sitting on the ground for like half a second do you know I'm talking  about? You ever do that?
MIKE: I'm not sure I'm not sure I'm trying to think about this
JAYMO: okay it's an  advanced technique that pretty much all competitive Tetris players do and you can do it in this game  as well after your pills touch something you have a split second to keep rotating it but it's so  short it feels like it should be like you know a millisecond longer and so it felt like I was being  denied a clever trick that I had thought of and that just doesn't feel good in the game. There's also not  much variety much gameplay variety there's one player mode and two player mode but there's nothing  in the way of story progression other than they aforementioned um UFO scene Mike do you have any other  thoughts on Dr. Mario before we head over to its sequel
MIKE: I mean I will say I don't don't necessarily  hold anything against it for not having a story mode because I'm not- I'm not going into a puzzle game  expecting a story mode, I'm expecting puzzle
JAYMO: yeah, yeah. I guess what I mean though is that a lot of modern puzzle  games as you play through the one player mode there will be new wrinkles to the gameplay that get  added so it's like oh now there's spike pieces and those will like pop your pill or now your jar is  really narrow and so it's like you have less room on the left and right there's just there's just  nothing in the way of one level feeling different to the next other than how many viruses are on the  screen and like what sort of configuration they're in and that's criticizing a game that you know  was one of the pioneers of the genre it's not really fair to criticize one of the very first puzzle  games for not having more features but I'm just saying like playing it these days you know once you  played it a bit there's not a whole lot of surprises, if that makes sense.
MIKE: yeah I guess I think that's not  something that I go into it expecting it's not something I'd go into a modern game expecting either  that I kind of expected this is a very self-contained gameplay loop and it's a lot more about  getting better at this getting faster, more precise than it is about getting you know new things 
JAYMO: yeah for sure well speaking of new things should we head to Dr. Mario 64
MIKE: let's go through and I guess  we'll skip Dr. Marios two through 63
JAYMO: oh you know I used to bring my Nintendo 64 in on the last day of  school because I actually have a really cool lesson about mario 64's first level perfectly  following story structure; there's literally a rising action you know the climax is denoted by a  music change... it's just a really fun English lesson while the kids are playing and so when I would  boot up the game I would go okay by show of hands who played who played Super Mario 63 and there was  always one liar who would raise his hand and it was like "ah, I exposed ya". so let's go on to Dr. Mario 64 released in  2001, once again published by Nintendo it was developed by Hitoshi Yamagami and he had his hands in  nearly every Nintendo puzzle franchise, including Yoshi's Cookie, Tetris, Panel de Pon, and Pokemon  puzzle league. Mike did you play any of these other Nintendo puzzle games? Because we're gonna play  some of them in this podcast
MIKE: two of those I've never heard of before
JAYMO: which one? I'm guessing Panel de Pon,  the anime one that's not translated to English
MIKE: yeah that's one of them. And Yoshi's Cookie I've never  heard of either
JAYMO: yeah it's funny because there's a game on the NES that we're gonna play in this  podcast called Yoshi and it's a puzzle game, it's a drop puzzle game, and Yoshi's cookie I believe is  the sequel. Don't quote me on that though, I'm not 100%.
MIKE: actually I may not have played- I'm not sure  if I have any idea what Tetris 2 is either, so really the only only one I can definitely say I've  played it all is I think I checked out Pokemon Puzzle League like five minutes worth  after getting Nintendo Switch online
JAYMO: yeah it's it's a cool game and we'll get into  more details on that one you know when we do that episode so let me read the description  on the Nintendo Switch menu it says Dr Mario 64 clear levels by matching vitamins this vitamin  matching puzzle game was released for the Nintendo 64 console in 2001 and features Dr Mario  armed with his trusty mega-vitamins treating patient after patient. meanwhile, however  Wario and the mysterious mad Scienstein are spying on Mario and hatching schemes to collect his  cure-all. Of course Wario just wants to get rich but what's the story with mad sciencestein?  the intrigue doesn't end there. to get to the bottom of things you'll face fast and furious action  as all sorts of villainous types scramble to get their hands on Dr Mario's mega vitamins. you'll  need to defeat each opponent to progress and to win you need to clear your screen before your  opponent clears theirs or force them to retire by filling their screen with garbage. You can also  test your mettle against computer controlled characters or up to three friends. Challenge them to match  you vitamin for vitamin in flash marathon and score attack modes let those capsules fly." so pretty  fun description I think overall you know definitely lively and you know pretty much mostly accurate to  what's actually in the game I wouldn't say the story has any level of actual intrigue did you  mess around with the story of Dr Mario 64
MIKE: I did a bit I was gonna ask because that features the  characters a lot more and they've got this sort of cut out feel is that a paper Mario style thing  they're doing or is that something else because I don't actually-
JAYMO: yeah, it's weird it's weird so paper Mario is  a fantastic game on the Nintendo 64 I've played through it entirely on Nintendo Switch Online you'll  play it eventually but they don't look exactly like this you know they don't look exactly like  they're so much cardboard cutouts they don't move they're actually animated I'm not sure why  Dr Mario 64 has that sort of paper cut-out aesthetic my theory, I'm gonna go to screenshot of it,  my theory is that it just saves on animation because you have a little image of Mario being moved  across the screen to simulate he's walking now you don't need to actually make his legs move you know  I mean it feels like it was a budget saving thing because I can't find any other connection to this  and the paper Mario franchise. It's also not communicated in the cover at all let's take a look at  the box art for Dr Mario 64. Mike looking at the NES and the 64 covers side by side here  what's your impression?
MIKE: I think losing the thermometer in his hand was a good idea
JAYMO: he's just giving  a thumbs up now. I mean these are Mike would you agree these are the same cover?
MIKE: they are fundamentally  the same cover to the point that the changes seem slightly odd to me like I don't like it's weird  they rearranged the three viruses on the cover-
JAYMO: so what Mike's referring to is that on the Nintendo cover  red is on the bottom, blue is in the middle, and yellow is on top but in the 64 one blue is on the  bottom, red is in the middle, and yellow is still on top yeah it's like why was that necessary maybe  it was a color balance thing I don't know. What strange though is that once again the viruses are not  drawn the way they appear in the game, they look like the boglins like the Jim Henson style I do like  though the way that Nintendo covers you know would really celebrate the four player aspect because  that was a big thing for me growing up. In fact Mike, some of our happiest memories are playing  smash brothers and golden eye and you know getting four people around a TV so definitely playing  to their strengths there. So I have some Dr Mario 64 trivia are you ready?
MIKE: I will just add my  final thought those covers um
JAYMO: yes
MIKE: catch four player fever just really takes a different tone after  the last few years
JAYMO: yeah yeah for sure um especially there's almost like a word within word there I  catch four play nerfie okay Mike Mike Mike keep it classy what's wrong with you Mike okay here's some  trivia um nearly all, in fact pretty much all except for Dr Mario, all the characters in this game  are cameos from Wario Land 3 and you know despite you know it released around the same time but  I couldn't find a lot of crossover in terms of like the development staff but what you're looking at  here Mike is it you know from the Dr Wario Land 3 manual you can see that all these characters,  well except for the spear robot, but they appear in Dr Mario as the people you have to beat from  stage to stage. Have you messed around with Wario Land 3 yet because you're gonna
MIKE: I have not yet 
JAYMO: okay it's a fun game it's a game where Wario you play as Wario but the catch is that unlike Mario  games, he's invincible and your goal is to hurt Wario in specific ways to get him around obstacles 
MIKE: so I have I have played this a bit now that you mentioned that. now I remember like 10 minutes worth  but yeah
JAYMO: yeah I recommended it to you via text a couple months ago it's just interesting though  because like you know there's a spear enemy and if he spears Wario Wario very painfully inflates  with air but now you can access you know platforms you couldn't reach by floating it's kind of a cool  game and to that end the game has secret bosses. You fight powered up versions of the rival characters  so in Dr Mario 64 you can play through the story mode as either Wario or Mario. If you play as Wario  your final hidden boss is metal Dr Mario and if you are playing as Mario then Vampire Wario is your  final boss I feel like I said Wario and Mario like a thousand times but you know these these  boss characters I think are cool and those are the two hidden ones if you are wondering at the  character select screen who the question marks were that's who they are
MIKE: I was wondering about that  I just that is such a weirdly like different set of final bosses to have where like 
JAYMO: yeah there's no parallelism between them yeah and it's funny because I don't know if you saw in  the previous screenshot but in the hidden cutscene before the final boss Mario or Wario eat the mega  vitamins and apparently if you're healthy and eat the mega vitamins you either become a vampire or  you get encased in metal like terminator style
MIKE: I heard that medicines can do that on YouTube last year 
JAYMO: there you go, wait are you joking
MIKE: I mean I am but it may actually also be on there
JAYMO: right yeah there  probably is somebody claiming that. Well so just like how Dr. Mario was available via the forgotten  Satellaview peripheral I'm so excited to make to introduce you to the IQue system. Ever seen this  thing before?
MIKE: I would never in a million years guess that IQ was going to be written IQue 
JAYMO: right, well, I think it's because it's Que as in like you're queuing up oh wait no that's Q U E U  wait hold on
MIKE:  no that's Q U E U E
JAYMO: well so the IQue system was a special version of the Nintendo 64  released exclusively in China in 2003 which for context, that's two years after the GameCube was  released everyelse in the world so this was released when the system was already outdated  but that was by design. the IQue system had only 14 games it isn't Dr Mario 64 was included  and it was released in response to video game consoles being outlawed for sale in China in the year 2000  according to Lisa Hanson from market researcher Nico Partners, the government thought a ban was the  best way to protect Chinese youth from wasting their minds on video games after a parental outcry.  So however as noted by Kotaku writer Brian Ashcroft, the following year online gaming exploded  hitting a one and grew by one hundred million dollars market, so the ban didn't exactly stop the problem.  It was basically like when America had prohibition and said no more alcohol and everyone said no we're  gonna have alcohol so the IQue player, Mike, was released using loopholes in the way the Chinese law was  written. So just kind of looking at this image and based on what I've told you so far any guesses  on how Nintendo was able to release a new console in a country where video game consoles were illegal?  any idea what courtrooms shenanigans they pulled to get this done?
MIKE: I mean there's a part of it that  feels like this is gonna I want the answer to be like they sold something and it just turned into a  video game console over time in the same way that like during prohibition they would sell like  grape juice and say like definitely don't store it this way because then it becomes alcohol  so
JAYMO: that hilarious
MIKE: yeah where it's just like just blatantly like definitely don't do this you wouldn't  want that to happen. My guess is based off the picture because all I see is a controller
JAYMO: yes that's  one of them you're smart go go go
MIKE: did they just sell a controller that could play games and somehow  they didn't count as a console
JAYMO: yes because it counted as a television peripheral because it plugged  directly into the TV, so smart on that. And I'll just give you the other one oh but yeah but if you  look at the controller that's why it's not the iconic n64 trident is that the chip you know all the  operating system for the game system is in there so it looks more like the dreamcast or do you remember  the very first Xbox controllers back when Halo first came out it's referred to as the Duke, the  really big old Xbox controller you know I'm talking about?
MIKE: I mean yes
JAYMO: yeah looks a lot like this 
MIKE: I was also going to say, that makes me also then wonder if that is or the other thing that made me  suspicious of that is also the there's like a plastic grilling in the center that I would think if  if you're putting components in there you need some sort of venting
JAYMO: yeah yeah and so the other way  that this got around the law is that it was only releasing old games, because like I said by design  you know it was selling old games to kids so Nintendo was able to technically classify this as  educational software providing playable samples of gaming history. So it's not a video game it's an  educational example of video games what do you think of that I applaud it I think it's great 
MIKE: it's educational because the games are older games
JAYMO: yeah
MIKE: That...
JAYMO: and there were  I think there were other things, like I think there were other educational applications like I think you could download  like calculators and like you know a dictionary or something
MIKE: that's just like if you showed someone  like "Debbie does Dallas" but said "no, this is educational because it's the past" and it's like that is  not remotely how this works
JAYMO: you know something
MIKE: you can't just show things from the past it'd be like  see it's history that doesn't
JAYMO: Well if you're getting around a stupid law apparently you can. I have  to admit I didn't in a million years think there'd be a "Debbie does Dallas" reference in my Mario  episode. Well I guess I'm not telling my students about this podcast Mike, thanks a lot. okay so  let's get into some thoughts on Dr. Mario 64 joy pros versus joy cons I thought it was more  visually varied in the original and pretty obviously there's 15 different characters there's  multiple different stages so in the back of the screen you can be on a beach you can be in the  mountains you can be in like a spider web thing I'm gonna guess that doesn't really matter to you  Mike, but I think it's you know it's nice. it's just a nice way to make your game look cuter and  prettier. Any thoughts on the looks of the dr. Mario 64
MIKE: I would say actually that whole  different stages and like who you're fighting kind of stuff does remind me of, I can't remember if  it's something that we will eventually cross paths with or not, which was the mean bean machine 
JAYMO: yeah that's on the Genesis and and this was you know this was a staple of puzzle games in the 90s  a bunch of em, I'm not sure which one did it first I think maybe Tetris attack did it first, but  yeah so but do you enjoy that, like you do you have fun picking a character and seeing their animations  or is it just sort of window dressing to you?
MIKE: I mean it for me it very much it just is window dressing  I did wonder if the story parts did anything different depending on who you picked so we've  covered that a little bit
JAYMO: yeah so I played through both Mario and Wario's story mode and you  know there's sort of an interesting little wrinkle about that, I'll skip to it here. so dr. Mario  and dr. and Wario are traveling through you know this land together and they're trying to chase down  dr. Sciencestein who stole the mega vitamins and most of the story is the same like Mario and Wario  will both get stuck in a spider web and you have to fight the spider and you know it just doesn't really  make a difference but then their stories do kind of branch off into meeting other characters but you  know there's really nothing there as far as like quality of dialogue or any sort of interesting cutscenes  except for the very end, dr. Mario's ending shows him curing the main villain and off to the left Mike  do you see the screenshot I'm showing in the bottom left corner? what does that look like to you? 
MIKE: it kind of feels like he's dead
JAYMO: yeah well who's yeah dr. Sciencestein is being  accosted by Wario off screen you see him get dragged off screen in little you know a little  pow and blanks or whatever and then so I beat that I was like oh well I want to play Wario's story  to see why he's beating up the mad scientist and like what that's all about and then at the end of  Wario's level story mode he doesn't beat up the scientist, the scientist runs away I was like what the heck  oh I feel like one team forgot to talk to the other team as far as who was animating it the but the  story mode you know it really doesn't add anything beyond just you know a couple of dialogue boxes  in between matches and Wario and Mario's paths are almost identical you know
MIKE: and in the Wario thing he  runs away with the pills
JAYMO: yes
MIKE: so so the Mario ending is Mario like vanquishes disease or whatever 
JAYMO: yeah and then he returns home the victorious
MIKE: in the Wario ending Wario still didn't win did he? 
JAYMO: no no and I guess I mean he is sort of a anti-hero sort of character so maybe it's like you know ah he  can never catch a break but nope
MIKE: it's just an odd tone to just be like no you don't actually get that 
JAYMO: yeah you win the game but you still lose, so... There are a drastically higher number of game modes  we played through these right before recording in addition to the classic Dr. Mario formula there's  the story mode we just talked about there's versus which is the same as the you know NES version of  you're just clearing blocks to send you know things over flash is where you have to target specific  viruses in order to clear the screen. Marathon is where viruses... so here's the mode where viruses  are spreading marathon is that viruses are appearing from the bottom of the screen constantly there's  no way to clear the screen it's how long can you last before you die and then score attack was  how many points can you get in a specific amount of time and if you play alone it is a certain point  goal you have to beat before time runs out.
MIKE: on the marathon thing
JAYMO: yeah
MIKE: because I did not play that  so with the virus appearing is that just them appearing in empty spaces at the bottom or is that  the whole thing moving upward and them taking in new rows
JAYMO: I believe it's the whole thing moves  up
MIKE: okay
JAYMO: I think so yeah and you know I I think it's neat that they found multiple ways to play this  game I mean you can't change too much without it feeling like not Dr. Mario. Mike, having just played  through these flash these you know sort of versus modes any thoughts on the different ways to play  Dr. Mario in the 64 version
MIKE: well I think one of the interesting decisions with the four player  versus
JAYMO: Yeah, talk about that, yes.
MIKE: is the decision that, so when you get combos you can send these bits of  pills to other players
JAYMO: yeah and it's like a sabotage
MIKE: yeah in four player this has the mechanism  that depending on the color of the first combo it will determine which player it goes to. So this  isn't necessarily the right colors but the idea is that effectively if your first combo was red it  goes to the player on your left if the first combo is blue it goes to the player on your right  and if the first combo is yellow it goes to the remaining player
JAYMO: the player not touching interesting 
MIKE: I cannot imagine
JAYMO: strategically using that?
MIKE: yeah
JAYMO: yeah it's ridiculous
MIKE: yeah like I saw that  and just like, I cannot fathom strategically knowing like I am going to hit this person with a combo it really  like it doesn't interest- to me it feels more like it's a randomization effect, if anything to just  spread it out
JAYMO: yeah you learned this by reading the manual but like I mean I don't think I don't  think anybody knows that I think you just play Dr. Mario and just try to deal with whatever  is sent your way. I thought the four player mode is kind of cool though even though it was just you  me and some bots. you know interesting in that it reverts the graphics back to the NES style so it  doesn't look as good but you know what they they fit they fit four games onto the screen vertically I  think they kind of get applause for that even functioning, and it felt fun to be on the same team like  a co-op puzzle game I don't know I I enjoyed myself I know this isn't really your cup of tea but  is there a multiplayer puzzle game you enjoy where it's like your sabotaging your opponent?  are you more like a solo player? I feel like you usually play puzzle games just to beat the puzzle 
MIKE: I think for puzzles it is probably more solo
JAYMO: yeah yeah I had a feeling
MIKE: there's definitely  none that I think about is more of a multiplayer thing than a solo thing
JAYMO: yeah some joy cons  for dr. mario 64 you know it doesn't really take advantage of the higher graphical capabilities  of the 64. You know you compare this to Super Mario 64, Mario Kart 64, Pilot Wings you know it's just  it's very bare bones. They don't really do a whole lot with the extra abilities of the system  and there's no new mechanics there's no new virus types there's no new pill shapes  and it's one of those games where I kind of I try not to criticize it for what it could have been  when I think it's pretty you know functional as is but there's definitely a feeling of well this  is basically the same game on the Nintendo just a little gussied up oh anything that annoyed you  about super dr mario 64 that was unique to this game versus the old one
MIKE: I don't understand what  the heck the point of the replay is unless maybe I was supposed to hold the button down or something  because the replay button goes to like the very beginning of the match and then immediately  goes like the last like who won and I'm not sure sure what's going on with that replay
JAYMO: yeah what  Mike's referring to is we were playing this game and we were trying to do an extra match and so  Mike kept hitting replay thinking oh let's play again but no it's a live action replay of the game  and you know it kept jumping to the end Mike because you were pressing buttons if you didn't press a  button it would have shown us the entire match
MIKE: oh okay
JAYMO: but I mean but like who who would watch  who would watch that? like because if you want to see like oh what went wrong, right? like oh how'd  I lose well the replay should start maybe 10 seconds from the end of the match don't start over  at the beginning what maniac is gonna rewatch the entire face off just to see what happened? do you  see what I'm saying? it seems like a really weird way to do it and I don't think there's like a fast  forward function. I think you could either just watch it or skip to the end like you said
MIKE: yeah that feels  almost then like or even if it's you know 30 seconds or something like there
JAYMO: yeah
MIKE: that's a lot  of time
JAYMO: a lot of time a lot of time. Anything else to say about Dr. Mario 64 before we render our verdicts? 
MIKE: I don't think so I think to to a large extent it feels much the same as Dr. Mario which to me I-  I'm not bothered by things like the graphics or the features in that sense, because to me it's-  that's as much as I'm expecting
JAYMO: right you don't want any more necessarily
MIKE: yeah yeah like there's a  simplicity to puzzle games that I think are much more about the complexity is getting better  rather than the game getting harder or it getting more into intricate
JAYMO: Right. All right so let's  render each game either a NintenDo or a NintenDon't. let's start off with the Nintendo  release Dr. Mario. Mike, NintenDo or NintenDon't for you?
MIKE: I think I'm going NintenDon't, I think it just it  just never really captures me.
JAYMO: So what's interesting is that I was originally a NintenDo  on this one, in fact even wrote it in my notes. It is you know an iconic puzzle game and you know  despite it being so bare bones I liked that on the NES I can rewind using the Nintendo Switch Online  so I can fix mistakes in a way that you don't get to do in even modern puzzle games, like when you're  playing Tetris Effect: Connected or whatever and that came out a couple years ago I don't think  there's like a oops rewind button and I really really liked that. And so I was originally going to say  Dr. Mario is a NintenDo but it should be used as training wheels for Dr. Mario 64 that was my theory  and then in playing Dr. Mario 64 competitively against you I realized I sort of hamstrung myself.  I got used to the ability to rewind and I think it made me worse facing off against you  and I found myself making more mistakes than I realized because I was used to rewinding time,  so because the other game is so much better I'm going to say Dr. Mario is an NintenDon't  but that's because I think Dr. Mario 64 is the NintenDo I really in fact I NintenDid  Wait a minute what'd I do last time oh I have a sound effect -oh wait a minute that wasn't loud enough.  Sorry, I want to celebrate when I've beatten a game on here. I beat Dr. Mario 64 as Mario, I beat it as  Wario, I think everything that makes Dr. Mario a classic is here with better visuals and you know more  modes so I found Dr. Mario disturbingly addictive, pun definitely intended
MIKE: Yeah so I think you can say you  beat Dr. Mario 128 then
JAYMO: Wait wait, okay so there was a game called Mario 128 that was never released, are you  realize that?
MIKE: Yes I'm making a very deep cut and not just adding 64 to itself
JAYMO: Yeah okay, that  that was weird. Yes I beat Dr. Mario 64 twice so that is 128 Dr. Marios worth of victory. So what about  the sequel then, is it still an NintenDon't for you because it's basically the same game that you  don't really enjoy? It's okay.
MIKE: I think- yeah I think I'm still gonna say an NintenDon't. I think the story  mode did actually add something that was a little bit interesting to go through
JAYMO: Right
MIKE: however I  then also hit a point where I just stopped progressing
JAYMO: Yeah
MIKE: and at that point I was like "well  this has been a few times through on one of them and I'm not getting past this and I'm not having  fun not getting past this"
JAYMO: Yeah so I mean I'll admit even though I shook my little tambourine and  played my stupid sound effect, yeah I beat dr mario 64 and yes you can't rewind on Nintendo 64 games  but to beat the final bosses I would save the game when it was going well, and then if I lost I would  reboot to the point of the puzzle that I wasn't screwing it up so I still basically reround- rerwound-  rewinded- reround -rewanced? I did still sort of cheat, but I don't know though these games are hard  I still think it's- still think it's worth celebrating. Well Mike um I think that kind of wraps up  our discussion here so we will need the listeners to chime in and break the tiebreaker on Dr. Mario 64.  "I'm an nintenDo". "I'm an nintenDon't". What do you think? Be sure to let us know in the comments below and  like, follow, and subscribe if you think we've earned it. Join us next time as the pinkylpse begins. We  are finally diving into the monumentous number of Kirby games available on the Nintendo Switch  Online retro service. We'll be playing Kirby's first three games, Kirby's dreamland uh Kirby's  adventure and Kirby's dreamland 2. So boot up Nintendo Switch Online give the game to try and then  join us next time. This has been The Old Switch-a-Roo; we've been talking gaming retro with Mike and Jaymo 
MIKE: I've been Mike
JAYMO: and I've been Jaymo. Game on, everyone.  Are you familiar with Moulin Rouge?
MIKE: What was that?
JAYMO: Moulin Rouge, the movie
MIKE: yes
JAYMO: so if i say the part where  Toulouse-Lautrec says like "everything's going so'" oh hold on is it him or is it Ziggler? Someone says  like "everything's going so well" and it's basically like the scene right before everything goes bad.  I think about that quote a lot while playing puzzle games